History question: Is the term "torpedo bomber" more historically accurate than "naval bomber"?

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billcorr

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History question: Is the term "torpedo bomber" more historically accurate than "naval bomber"?

HoI4 uses the term "naval bomber". Such a term does not emphasize the idea that when designing a naval bomber, you need to include torpedoes.

Calling the HoI4 variable a "torpedo bomber" would link the idea of "torpedo" with "bomber" ... it's right there in the name.

The goal would be to reduce confusion and misunderstanding, as in this example:

 
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Ossiv

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History question: Is the term "torpedo bomber" more historically accurate than "naval bomber"?

HoI4 uses the term "naval bomber". Such a term does not emphasize the idea that when designing a naval bomber, you need to include torpedoes.

Calling the HoI4 variable a "torpedo bomber" would link the idea of "torpedo" with "bomber" ... it's right there in the name.

The goal would be to reduce confusion and misunderstanding, as in this example:

Not all naval bombers were torpedo bombers. Naval bombers also carried bombs and dept charges and later during WWII guided glide bombs and anti-ship missiles.
 
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xtfoster

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Torpedo bomber would be more specific, and in-game even more accurate, but historically most (if not all) 'Torpedo' bombers could (and did) also carry bombs. The prime cause of the Japanese disaster at Midway was caused by them changing the loadouts of their 'bombers' from Ground Attack weapons (HE Bombs) to Anti-Shipping (Torpedos and AP Bombs).
 
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Gran Strategist

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If I was to define a naval bombers it would be a plane designed to carry anti ship weapons. In this case torpedoes but also depth charges IRL and in modern times anti ship missiles.

Naval bombers don't usually carry exclusively anti ship weapons and are generally multirole with the ability to carry traditional bombs which can and were also be used against ships.

Land based naval bombers were often traditional bombers which were retro fitted to carry torpedoes or depth charges while carrier naval bombers were usually multi role planes which cold be fitted with bombs or torpedoes depending on their target.

With the way the game works it is better to simply have naval bombers which solely carry torpedoes.

For the noted 'confusion' that seems like an odd case where they didn't start with torpedoes tech for some reason.
 
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unmerged(485085)

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I can't speak to the terminology of other countries, but the USN historically used the following terminology in the WW2 era:

- 'Torpedo bomber' or 'torpedo plane' referred primarily to light aircraft like the TBD Devastator and TBF Avenger, which correlate to the 'carrier naval bomber' in HOI4.
- 'Dive bomber' or 'scout bomber' referred primarily to light aircraft like the SB2U Vindicator or SBD Dauntless, which correlate to the 'carrier cas' in HOI4.
- 'Patrol bomber' referred primarily to medium aircraft like the PBY Catalina, which correlate to the 'naval bomber' in HOI4.

For examples, see the combat narratives at history.navy.mil (e.g., Coral Sea combat narrative).

The first two letters of the above acronyms represented the type of aircraft, with TB being 'torpedo bomber', SB being 'scout bomber', and PB being 'patrol bomber'. The third letter represented the aircraft manufacturer, since multiple companies often produced the same aircraft models in those days.

Both torpedo bomber and patrol bomber designs usually were able to equip either torpedoes or bombs. Torpedoes could only be used against ships, but with bombs these aircraft could attack either ships or land targets. Nearly all aircraft could be used for armed reconnaissance, but patrol aircraft were particularly suited for this since they were usually designed for endurance and range. Many aircraft from all types and services were adapted to various roles depending on the needs of the mission.

I think the plane designer feature of BBA helps to introduce a bit more of the multi-role nature of aircraft of the era, though the UI and automatic classifying of missions and aircraft type can be confusing.
 
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Findell_HOI

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Well for what ever reason they got rid of naval dive bombers for no apparent reason still can't figure that one out.

And then they got rid of tacial bombers dropping bombs on ships from high altitude which is something else that happened historically.
 
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xtfoster

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The first two letters of the above acronyms represented the type of aircraft, with TB being 'torpedo bomber', SB being 'scout bomber', and PB being 'patrol bomber'. The third letter represented the aircraft manufacturer, since multiple companies often produced the same aircraft models in those days.
Under the 1922 Systems Designation (which was used until 1962 when they switch to the Tri-Service system), those 'first two letters' was anything from 1 to 6 letters, and technically could have been more.

The first (optional) letter would designate a prototype or experimental aircraft with Y or X, but only until the aircraft was accepted for production.

The second (optional) letter would be the general type (Fixed-wing (omitted), Airship (Z), Rotary-wing (H), or Glider (L)).

Then the role (which could be multiple letters for multiple roles). So TB actually means it was designed to act as a Torpedo Plane and/or a Bomber. SB means it was both a Scout and a Bomber. PTB is a Patrol Torpedo Bomber.

Next is the Design number, which is omitted if it is the first, and is specific to a given company. The FF fighter is nicknamed the 'Fifi' because it is technically the FIF-1.

Then comes the company code, which is specfic to the builder (not designer). Note that a given aircraft can have multiple designations if it was built by different companies. For example, the Grumman F4F Wildcat was designated as the FM Wildcat when built by GM (after Grumman switched to F6F production). Note that the company code could be changed or reassigned if a company no longer existed or hadn't produced an aircraft for the Navy for an extended period of time. For example, A referred to the Atlantic Aircraft Corp (aka, Fokker-America) until 1932, then Brewster Aeronatical Corp until 1943, then Allied Aviation Corp until 1946, and finally Noorduyn (Canada).

The final part of the designation is the variant, which is usually only shown when discussing that specific variant of the aircraft. It is simply a dash followed by the number of the variant. A minor modification that didn't justify a new variant designation would have a sequential letter after the variant number, hence the TBF-1C is a minor change to the production TBF-1.

Its actually really similar to the IJNAS designation system.

So, because of omissions/optional codes, you could have a short designation like the FF (Grumman's first Carrier Fighter) or a long one like the XPTBH-2 (a seaplane Patrol Torpedo Bomber that never entered production).
 
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Einar Matveinen

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History question: Is the term "torpedo bomber" more historically accurate than "naval bomber"?

HoI4 uses the term "naval bomber". Such a term does not emphasize the idea that when designing a naval bomber, you need to include torpedoes.

Calling the HoI4 variable a "torpedo bomber" would link the idea of "torpedo" with "bomber" ... it's right there in the name.

The goal would be to reduce confusion and misunderstanding, as in this example:

No, there were naval dive bombers like the SBD Dauntless, and naval torpedo bombers like Grumman TBF Avenger. Maybe we would need both naval classes in the game.
 

xtfoster

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Well for what ever reason they got rid of naval dive bombers for no apparent reason still can't figure that one out.
Umm, no they didn't (CV-CAS). And unless I am mistaken, they actually work now.
And then they got rid of tacial bombers dropping bombs on ships from high altitude which is something else that happened historically.
1) High altitude bombing of a moving ship wasn't very succesful (if at all).
2) Even mid/low level (skip) bombing of moving ships was considered a failure, which is why the major combatents stopped attempting it after 1942 or so.
3) If you really want to use Medium (or even Heavy) Bombers in the Naval Strike role, you can if you install Air to ground RADAR.
 
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billcorr

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No, there were naval dive bombers like the SBD Dauntless,

Good point about the Dauntless.

In HoI4, I was thinking that planes such as naval dive bombers were represented by CV CAS equipment.