History of Map-Changes: why 1.23 is the way to go

[Sfan]

To be honest, the more I think of it, the likelier it is it will be somewhere in Europe, probably Western Europe. Eastern Europe has had Russia patch, Northern has had Denmark patch, there has been the Far East, the Near East/Middle East, Hungary has covered some parts of the Balkans as well. I think Africa is pretty complete, especially since Ethiopia was changed. The New World is complete as well, or at least pretty much any nation there already has a special DLC mechanic so it's unlikely it will be touched. This leaves Western and Central Europe (France, Italy, GB, Iberia, HRE, Poland?) as the most plausible next patch, shortly followed by Balkans (Greece patch?) and India (Mughals patch to follow the Persian update of CoC?), or potentially Indonesia.

 

[Isildur9526]

The French region could use more provinces, as well as a return of France's vassals (some kind of League of the Public Weal event-chain). France was one of the richest and densely populated regions of Europe, it shouldn't have such large provinces.

I have a mod (in progress) which aims to solve that problem using custom subject types, French monarchy government type and a new mechanic called Integration Progress (a percentage altered by your choices in events).

Atm France doesn't really have much strategic depth at the start of the game in comparison to other countries like Castile, who can just inherit Aragon in the early game. But on the other side of the coin, Castile has an early game disaster whereas France gets theirs much later on.

If France had more to hold them back (such as a disaster and increased autonomy in their provinces) in the early game but allow them to centralise and become powerful by the mid-late game (like the powerhouse they were) if they manage to integrate all their vassals, a balanced France patch could work. Included also could be additions to Burgundy and surrounding regions.

It would also mean a much more interesting game for those who are new to EU4 and would most likely be playing a country such as France.

 

[creativitypersonified]

To be honest, the more I think of it, the likelier it is it will be somewhere in Europe, probably Western Europe. Eastern Europe has had Russia patch, Northern has had Denmark patch, there has been the Far East, the Near East/Middle East, Hungary has covered some parts of the Balkans as well. I think Africa is pretty complete, especially since Ethiopia was changed. The New World is complete as well, or at least pretty much any nation there already has a special DLC mechanic so it's unlikely it will be touched. This leaves Western and Central Europe (France, Italy, GB, Iberia, HRE, Poland?) as the most plausible next patch, shortly followed by Balkans (Greece patch?) and India (Mughals patch to follow the Persian update of CoC?), or potentially Indonesia.

Western, southern and Northern Africa is still lacking. And the Ethiopia region has still got a lot more potential. Then there is also indochina Indonesia. Siberia could also get a patch. It had been worked on by the Cossacks but it still has room for reworks.

I don't think we can be accurate with our predictions. The lead has moved from johan to jake. Until we figure out what his development plan is we can't be sure. He could be releasing the South Pole patch or something ( ok probably not the South Pole patch but still )

 

[Mingmung]

Western, southern and Northern Africa is still lacking. And the Ethiopia region has still got a lot more potential. Then there is also indochina Indonesia. Siberia could also get a patch. It had been worked on by the Cossacks but it still has room for reworks.

I don't think we can be accurate with our predictions. The lead has moved from johan to jake. Until we figure out what his development plan is we can't be sure. He could be releasing the South Pole patch or something ( ok probably not the South Pole patch but still )

Africa is already quite 'crowded' compared to the more populated continents, are there enough sources to fully justify another rework like Mare Nostrum and Art of War?

I'm all for additions, don't get me wrong.

 

[ahyangyi]

Western, southern and Northern Africa is still lacking. And the Ethiopia region has still got a lot more potential. Then there is also indochina Indonesia. Siberia could also get a patch. It had been worked on by the Cossacks but it still has room for reworks.

I don't think we can be accurate with our predictions. The lead has moved from johan to jake. Until we figure out what his development plan is we can't be sure. He could be releasing the South Pole patch or something ( ok probably not the South Pole patch but still )

For Africa I just want a few things:

* I hope the late tags (Ashanti, Funj, and maybe could also rework for Oromo people in southern Ethiopia) can appear in 1444 in a more primitive way. Maybe a new government form for those tribes that really haven't formed a country, but the vanilla Tribal Federation should work fine. The point is these people did have interesting stories in the 1444-1820 timeframe. They were just a bit late to the stage, but they did exist before the tag appeared.
* The few remaining generic idea set countries could get more interesting idea sets.
* Make Morocco and Tunisia more interesting and give them distinct idea sets.

 

[creativitypersonified]

Africa is already quite 'crowded' compared to the more populated continents, are there enough sources to fully justify another rework like Mare Nostrum and Art of War?

I'm all for additions, don't get me wrong.

I'm no expert on African history but if paradox is willing to do stuff with as little additions as the Hungary patch then there most definitely is room for patches. Western Africa was also pretty interesting with the Sunni jihads and conversion of fetishists so that may be enough for a third Rome style immersion pack. Not saying this is likely but definitely possible.

 

[Lys91]

Are you sure about that?

While I'd agree that France had a higher population than Germany proper I doubt it had more than the Holy Roman Empire (including the highly populated Northern Italy and Low Countries)

I think you are confusing with modern France (starting from XVIII century). While most historian cannot figure why, France population growth moved to "modern" growth pattern earlier than any other nation (many theories, no concensus). If they had followed a growth pattern similar to Germany or England, they would be now days somewhere between Japan and Russia in term of population. During EU4 timeframe their population was huge compared to any of their neighbour. In the CK2 timeframe the population of the duchy of Normandy alone was not very far bellow the population of England, and was richer for a good chunk of the time period. There is a reason why Napoleon was able to fight against the rest of Europe.

 

[Mingmung]

I think you are confusing with modern France (starting from XVIII century). While most historian cannot figure why, France population growth moved to "modern" growth pattern earlier than any other nation (many theories, no concensus). If they had followed a growth pattern similar to Germany or England, they would be now days somewhere between Japan and Russia in term of population. During EU4 timeframe their population was huge compared to any of their neighbour. In the CK2 timeframe the population of the duchy of Normandy alone was not very far bellow the population of England, and was richer for a good chunk of the time period. There is a reason why Napoleon was able to fight against the rest of Europe.

What do the theories say about this?

 

[ElGranCapitan]

I think you are confusing with modern France

No not at all, I looked up estimates of population in the late middle ages and early modern periods a while ago and I remember seeing France at 15mil around 1500 (the Kingdom of France, that is, so minus Alsace-Lorraine and other later acquisitions) while the HRE was estimated at 20mil. Now that includes the Kingdom of Italy and the non-German culture lands of the Kingdom of Germany

Gotta see if I can find the source

 

[Lys91]

What do the theories say about this?

Fertility decline that could be explained by a combination of wars (France faced a very very high rate of death through war compared to any other country in the XVIIIth, XIXth and XXth century), deceases, little ice age (France had a population decrease during that time not really seen on the same scale elsewhere), earlier adoption of modern liberal/individualist values (nuclear families, contraception etc...), higher health standard and child survival rate (so you need less children to guarantee the continuation of your patrimony), better agriculture standard (related to previous point), slower urbanization, earlier secularization. Combination of such factors contributed to the earliest demographic transition. Such demographic transition will be seen elsewhere only much later.

France was the most populated country after China and India until the XVIII century. It fall all the way down to 4th place in Europe in the XXth century. It is now at third place in Europe, with one of the highest birth rate there (with no particular increase, but birth rate decline is far less stip than in other European countries). It has overcome UK in population size in the early 2000's and it is predicted that it will overcome Germany around mid-21st century. Immigration pattern may however contradict those predictions.

 

[Snowcrisp]

I'd like to see france/spain/portugal and britain being updated next patch tbh especially brittish NI's i mean there is no unique ideas for britain so thats one way to buff the region by giving brittian its own unique NI's.France like many have said could get more provences porugal and spainish tags i dunno

edit:also next patch i'd like for catholic/reformed/protestantism to get updated since orthodox/islam did.

maybe even a whole patch where all the religions gett a look at/updated? would be pretty cool to have unique features for all religions in the game even nation designer ones lol

 

[Sfan]

Fertility decline that could be explained by a combination of wars (France faced a very very high rate of death through war compared to any other country in the XVIIIth, XIXth and XXth century), deceases, little ice age (France had a population decrease during that time not really seen on the same scale elsewhere), earlier adoption of modern liberal/individualist values (nuclear families, contraception etc...), higher health standard and child survival rate (so you need less children to guarantee the continuation of your patrimony), better agriculture standard (related to previous point), slower urbanization, earlier secularization. Combination of such factors contributed to the earliest demographic transition. Such demographic transition will be seen elsewhere only much later.

France was the most populated country after China and India until the XVIII century. It fall all the way down to 4th place in Europe in the XXth century. It is now at third place in Europe, with one of the highest birth rate there (with no particular increase, but birth rate decline is far less stip than in other European countries). It has overcome UK in population size in the early 2000's and it is predicted that it will overcome Germany around mid-21st century. Immigration pattern may however contradict those predictions.

We can add to that higher education standards earlier than everywhere else in the world, and harsh laws which enforced the equality of inheritance between all the children and incentivized less children.

 

[creativitypersonified]

So, you said that Frances population would be around Russia-japans. Surprisingly if the 1444 HRE stayed United that would be a pretty good range for estimates too. Russia 145 mil-Japan 300+mil
We have : Germany 82 mil, Austria 9 mil, Switzerland 9 mil, Netherlands 17mil, Czech Republic at 10 mil, northern Italy 40 mil
All in all 167 million. Now that Is amongst the lower side of the estimate but I'm pretty sure that's where the most accurate guess is.

 

[Sol717]

Africa is already quite 'crowded' compared to the more populated continents, are there enough sources to fully justify another rework like Mare Nostrum and Art of War?

I believe there are, though some of those sources are kind of obscure, and Paradox usually doesn't check outside Wikipedia or advice from modders.

 

[Mingmung]

I believe there are, though some of those sources are kind of obscure, and Paradox usually doesn't check outside Wikipedia or advice from modders.

That's not true, they use various sources to make their maps (all kinds of books, for example); not only wikipedia or modders. That's a big underestimation.

 

[sigeena]

I would like to see more wasteland provinces in IndoChina region. Most of Lan Xang is mountainous terrain, and for Burma to enter Thailand, it has to go through some mountainous passes. Makes sense to place some constriction points.

 

[Zerodv]

I love a lot what they did with Korea and Japan in terms of province sizes, shapes and historical accuracy. I hope something similar could be done in France and Iberia(increasing provinces by 20-30%), Germany(adding just some important provinces but mostly reshaping), Italy(same as Germany, maybe some provinces in Sicily and Lombardy-Venice).

Other than Western Europe, India needs provinces in the Ganges as China does in the Chinese plain.