History of Map-Changes: why 1.23 is the way to go

[Mingmung]

I still remember when the first big map-patch was released alongside Art of War. It was glorious to behold, not perfect, but still so much better than it once was. It changed the set-up of EU4 forever and laid the groundwork for things to come.

Art of War brought patch 1.8:
- 45% more detail and more than 900 new provinces spread across the New World, Asia, Africa, the Indian-subcontinent and more.

A while later Common Sense brought patch 1.12, which updated Europe a bit:
- (Slight) reworks of Germany, Poland (#RIPsquareMemel), Ukraine, the Low Countries, Italy, Bohemia and Spain.
- As well as some small islands like Djerba, Sao Tome, Euboea and Hormuz.

Then Mare Nostrum came with patch 1.16 to change the setup again all around the world:
- Major update to Eastern Africa and the Congo Basin. They were not uninhabitable wastelands anymore.
- Update to Ireland.
- England, Scotland and Scandinavia got redrawn.
- Hungary and Transylvania got some love, too.
- Russian provinces got redrawn as well as some additions, like Odoyev.
- France was redrawn.
- Slight changes to Belarus and Lithuania.
- One more province in Japan.

Patch 1.19 came shortly after Rights of Man was released, it was dubbed the 'Denmark-patch':
- Changes to Sweden, Norway and especially Denmark.
- Dithmarschen was added in Northern Germany.
- As well as Abarquh in Persia.
- Syrmia was added in Hungarian-controlled Croatia.
- Two more provinces in Russia.
- One more province in Portugal.

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Patch 1.20 was the first of the more focused patches when it came to map-changes. It was brought into the game along with the Mandate of Heaven expansion, so a major update to South-East Asia:
- China, Korea and the Northern Steppes redrawn: more than 30 new provinces.
- Japan redrawn: 14 new provinces.

Patch 1.21 ('Hungary') was also much more focused on certain events in and around Hungary:
- Breslau, Silesia, split in two.
- Moravia split in two.
- Some provinces added in Hungary.
- The addition of Belgrade (finally).

The last expansion we've had, was the first immersion-pack: Third Rome. It came together with patch 1.22. Again, a much more focused map-patch:
- 26 new provinces in Russia and Ruthenia (including Kazan and Belarus).

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You can clearly see that 1.20 and onwards the map-changes have been much more focused, like in the upcoming Cradle of Civilization patch. 1.23 Is bringing an entirely revamped Middle-East, with more than 70 new provinces.

I'm of the opinion that we need more of those focused experiences that bring parts of the map on the same level as patch 1.23. Especially areas that haven't gotten much love since Art of War or Common Sense. These focused expansions and patches don't just bring a prettier map, but also more regional mechanics and flavour, which is always welcome in this game.

Scandinavia, Hungary, Russia and South-East Asia (minus Indochina, the Philipines and Indonesia) have (almost) gotten the same attention like the Middle-East, so I'm of the opinion that those regions are good to go for a while.

I'm especially hoping for an India-revamp (it's kind of needed), as well as some nice touches on Europe: The French region could use more provinces, as well as a return of France's vassals (some kind of League of the Public Weal event-chain). France was one of the richest and densely populated regions of Europe, it shouldn't have such large provinces.

Third on my list are Ottoman-controlled Greece and Bulgaria, which look strange and outdated compared to the new provinces in Anatolia. The addition of some more provinces, as well as an independent Epirus, would do wonders for this region.

Last but not least are the Danube-principalities: Bessarabia needs to be split, with the southern part going to the Ottomans (Dobruja). Bukovina/Suceava would also be a nice and historically correct addition to Moldavia.

I've seen a lot of good ideas on the suggestion-subforums, the ones listed above are just my personal favorites.

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TL;DR: I hope Paradox continues with the more focused attention on some regions, providing cool and unique game mechanics to the various factions, but also bringing much more detail to the map. 1.23 is looking to be very good, so I can't wait for what's next to come.

EDIT: Two images of the game-map, one at launch, the other of the current map (before 1.23). Just look at the differences. Amazing how much has changed.

 

[Mr. G]

I think Germany could be a good place for a patch in the future with some more provinces.

 

[DeerMan]

nice, I love when they update the map! When the first dev diary came in August I was euphoric seeing just the Arabian peninsula reworked

 

[Ex Mudder]

I'm especially hoping for an India-revamp (it's kind of needed), as well as some nice touches on Europe: The French region could use more provinces, as well as a return of France's vassals (some kind of League of the Public Weal event-chain). France was one of the richest and densely populated regions of Europe, it shouldn't have such large provinces.

Agree completely, esp with these 2 points. France, its lack of vassals, and especially its trade nodes are awful.

There have been a bunch of improvements in subject relations, French Vassals should be revisited in light of that.

And the Bordeaux trade node needs to die in the fire of a thousand suns.

 

[Sfan]

I agree with what you say, but I would have presented Art of War and the India update as the standard set up for other regions, and India seems fine to me (and we can trust Trin Tragula to update it if that's needed).


Your screenshot proves what I already thought: the really lackluster region in terms of number/size of provinces is paradoxically Western Europe. As a French, it's pretty easy for me to see how bad it looks. Just check Britanny, it's based on modern day areas and not at all on historical regions. The same is true for most of the provinces, they are based on the Republican overhaul and not the feudal regions when well, the Republican overhaul happened in the last 30 years. The intent of the First Republic was to cut the old feudal borders intentionally more often than not, and I feel like PDX got inspired by the Republican borders to create the EU4 ones.

This map might not be perfect and is only accurate for the beginning of the timeframe, but it's not hard to see that "Orléanais", "Saintonge", "Alençon" and "Nemours" have been placed completely randomly and cover about 3 times their historical size due to the lack of other provinces. Not even talking about Lyonnais which has never been a province in France (well, it has been, but about 6 times smaller than on the EU4 map).

I have often thought about making a suggestion post, but I lack the historical knowledge to make it perfectly accurate. But just creating Kerne/Cornouailles and Leon/Léon in Britanny because Finistère represents literally nothing historically, and creating Tourraine would be a start. I also think that there is something awfully wrong with Toulouse/Béarn as Foix is a releasable from Béarn while the city of Foix is located in the southwest of the Toulouse province (on the eastern branch of the river you see there on the map, so definitely in the Toulouse province unless the river is mispositioned). Maybe split Foix and make it the southern half of the Toulouse province.

From what I've read, Netherlands/Belgium has the same issues and it fails to represent correctly the Burgundian possessions (just look at the size of the Bourgogne province, it's bigger than some in Northern Russia), so a Burgundy/France focused patch could be an interesting idea. In the hope that it manages to create something better for BI as well.

And if that's the case with France, it's likely that Western Europe and the rest of these regions designed when there were less people working on historical accurracy and left almost untouched since then could use a patch or two.

 

[Fishman786]

France seems to me to have provinces about the same size as those of other European majors. Look at Hungary, Castile, England, Poland. True, the Italy and Germany have small provinces but that's only because the political situation there was extremely complex and needs lots of small provinces to be represented adequately. By contrast, the developers seem to have consciously decided to avoid representing French internal politics on the map, they've completely removed all of France's old vassals for instance.

 

[Sfan]

It's more than France was widely more populated than Spain, England, Poland or Hungary. You can only find such density in areas of Northern Italy, the Low countries and some bits of Germany, so smaller less developped provinces there would make sense instead of ahistorical things which cover 3 historical provinces are are more populated than pretty much every European province in the game.
Now, I also think Spain could see some provinces split but I haven't seen the same amount of suggestion threads about Spain and I lack the knowledge to ses what's missing.

 

[vfmikey]

I think Iberia and "Berber" Africa should be next, it seems to me like first of all Iberia is lacking in provinces and Berber countries lack flavour.

Maybe also Central Europe, with Eastern Germany and Western/Northern Poland could use a few new and redrawn provinces?

 

[Fishman786]

I think Iberia and "Berber" Africa should be next, it seems to me like first of all Iberia is lacking in provinces and Berber countries lack flavour.

Maybe also Central Europe, with Eastern Germany and Western/Northern Poland could use a few new and redrawn provinces?

But Iberia only has five countries, and two of them are usually gone by the end of the 15th century. Why does it need more provinces?

 

[Sfan]

Well Scandinavia and Russia have about the same amount of countries, and are down to 2 and 1 country lategame, and they still had a patch.

 

[Fishman786]

Well Scandinavia and Russia have about the same amount of countries, and are down to 2 and 1 country lategame, and they still had a patch.

Increasing the number of provinces in part of the map means that the political situation in that area can be represented better, gives strategic depth to the countries in question and makes warfare more engaging (up to a point). In return it causes lag, makes the game more difficult to keep track of, slows the spread of institutions (a lot of them spread mainly by adjacency) and hurts the economy because more buildings are needed to cover the area. Excessive province counts without accompanying development boosts can also mess with warfare by making forts rarer. Finally, provinces that are too small are a user interface nightmare and can be hard to click on or label.

In Iberia internal regional politics aren't that important due to the Iberian Wedding and the very friendly Portugal-Castile relationship. Castille, Portugal and Aragon are all major countries that aren't exactly lacking in strategic depth (well Portugal could do with a bit more but their long eastern border makes them pretty much defenceless anyway), and warfare there is pretty much fine owing to the interesting chokepoints at the Pyrenees, good distribution of forts, low supply limits etc. Adding new provinces in Iberia doesn't seem worth the drawbacks to me.

 

[Palando]

I think Iberia and "Berber" Africa should be next, it seems to me like first of all Iberia is lacking in provinces and Berber countries lack flavour.

Maybe also Central Europe, with Eastern Germany and Western/Northern Poland could use a few new and redrawn provinces?

The Maghreb and Poland-Lithuania could really get some redrawals. But I think that eastern Germany is already in a pretty good spot, although Thuringia is a bit huge and ugly and could use a more historical face-lift.

Looking at those maps, there was no change for Austria since the game's release! Many of those provinces are ahistorical or big and ugly.

 

[Sfan]

While I agree with the reasoning, it does not seem to be the direction towards which Paradox goes. The Denmark patch added no new tag, did not represent any political complexity, slowed institutions and yet was considered needed simply because provinces were too big.

Edit: Austria could definitely need some love, especially to improve Styria and the events relating the unions and the Habsburgs.

 

[deserk]

Personally I really hope the next map updates are in Europe, particularly in Iberia, France, Italy, Britain and the Balkans.

 

[Mingmung]

Increasing the number of provinces in part of the map means that the political situation in that area can be represented better, gives strategic depth to the countries in question and makes warfare more engaging (up to a point). In return it causes lag, makes the game more difficult to keep track of, slows the spread of institutions (a lot of them spread mainly by adjacency) and hurts the economy because more buildings are needed to cover the area. Excessive province counts without accompanying development boosts can also mess with warfare by making forts rarer. Finally, provinces that are too small are a user interface nightmare and can be hard to click on or label.

In Iberia internal regional politics aren't that important due to the Iberian Wedding and the very friendly Portugal-Castile relationship. Castille, Portugal and Aragon are all major countries that aren't exactly lacking in strategic depth (well Portugal could do with a bit more but their long eastern border makes them pretty much defenceless anyway), and warfare there is pretty much fine owing to the interesting chokepoints at the Pyrenees, good distribution of forts, low supply limits etc. Adding new provinces in Iberia doesn't seem worth the drawbacks to me.

Keep in mind that performance is not really an issue anymore when it comes to province-count. Redrawals also don't always mean dozens of new provinces for a country; rather a few additions here and there, some new tags (if necessary) and redrawals of borders.

France, for example, was apart from its crownlands not really centralized. The nobles of these duchies even rose up one time in the first few decades within EU4's timespan. France had their vassals once, but those are gone. The new Timurid-balkanization in patch 1.23 shows that Paradox is willing to decentralize states into different tags, this gives me hope that they might look to the French region again in the future. Another point is that, compared to 1.23, quite a few regions in the world look less detailed and outdated. Including many regions in Europe.

Again; revisions don't mean hundreds of new provinces, a few dozen are sometimes more than enough. I'm sure this won't bring much performance-issues with it.

And about institutions and the economy: They could always tweak these numbers, if necessary. It shouldn't stop them from revamping regions on the map. The Denmark-patch also showed us that it doesn't matter if countries got divided in history or not, they can still get new provinces.

@Sfan Dithmarschen was added in the Denmark patch But otherwise agreed. Austria, the Tyrol and Switzerland have never gotten an update.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

For me the whole HRE together with some countries within and around it needs an update. The current mechanic is lackluster and outright impossible for the AI (except the first reform), Austria is still the same and lacks flavour, especially the Habsburgs. France as their rival in the West is missing his vassals and has really big provinces. The revolt of the Netherlands is outright bad and always ends in a disaster for the United Provinces, the event, where the Italian countries choose to leave all together is incorrect in that way, there's no War of the Burgundian Succession (just the peace treaty with different heirs), there's no real interaction and meddling between the emperor and the countries within the HRE. The whole empire just feels... bland. There's no "real" HRE, just a region with special rules regarding AE and conquest.

Then, there's also Iberia, Italy, the Balkans and Greece, which are lacking provinces and flavour. Although the Berbers and East Europe had updates, they're also still lacking.


Biggest problem is to find the right balance in these situations. Nearly all of these updates, especially for specific countries, added way too much power in comparison to countries, which weren't updated.

 

[Rabid]

India is my personal preference for next region to get a rework for a few reasons but France definitely could use a Timurid-style rework and would be fairly high on my list even if I'm never actually going to play as France! But it's important that it doesn't mess up the balance in the region, which is something which a France rework needs to be particularly careful with compared to Russia or the Middle East.

I mean, hell, remember when Burgundy was a big, scary, powerful state like it was IRL? On the rare occasions when the Burgundian inheritance didn't happen they usually ended up causing some serious damage, which was fun to see from time to time. Some of the changes and reworks haven't necessarily been for the better imo.

 

[Mattymooz]

Agree completely, esp with these 2 points. France, its lack of vassals, and especially its trade nodes are awful.

There have been a bunch of improvements in subject relations, French Vassals should be revisited in light of that.

And the Bordeaux trade node needs to die in the fire of a thousand suns.

Any reason why you hate Bordeaux in particular? And what would you change it to?

 

[solidprice]

Would love to have subjects for France again so not just any derp can get the BBB as a ally.

 

[Badesumofu]

France should be closer to Germany/North Italy in terms of the size of the provinces. At the moment it's more comparable to Iberia, England, Hungary - areas which were not as developed or populated as France in the period.

Speaking of France, I'd like also to see an event chain or disaster to represent the centralisation in France over the first part of the game's period. I don't really want to see the vassals back but I think there should be something.