History of Ceuta and Melilla -and why Gibraltar is a colony but they are not

[Gordy]

Nitpicking at its finest. Reply to the rest of the post.

I know it's not easy living a place like Britain, but you don't have any right claiming every corner on the earth and then cry 'self determination' once you've got rid of everyone else living there or refuse them the same rights, as if you've always owned the place.

Even yourselves got tired of yourselves and created countries like the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and whatnot...

I won't bother with people with Imperialistic mentality such as yourself anymore.

As I said before just tell me when we got rid of the original inhabitants of the Falklands. Since it did not happen, you won't be able to put a date on it. So it is rather convenient to duck under the guise of being "tired".

edit: and I can reply to whatever parts of your post I see fit. I choose to target the lies about the Falklands.

 

[Gordy]

This is completely wrong. Succession of states means that the islands should belong to Argentina. France > Spain > Argentina. The Argentine argument has nothing to do with proximity and everything to do with inheritance and the fact the British forcefully resettled the Island.

The original inhabitants were predominantly Gauchos from Buenos Aires too.

Again, when was this Argentinian colony started and when were they removed? If you can't put dates on it, it is because it did not happen.

I'll give you a hint, the final British colonisation happened in 1833 at which point the islands were empty, the previous attempts at colonisation by the British, Spanish and an odd private one having all failed. In 1833, Argentina did not even exist. The private attempt at colonisation which was given permission by the British and had a second in command from Manchester had gauchos alongside Britons. This colonisation failed and the surviving coloists were escorted from the islands on an American ship.

This wasn't the first attempt at colonisation, there had been attempts at colonisation by Britain and Spain (more ore less similtaneously on different islands). This predates any attempt to bring Gauchos to the Falklands so how they can be the aboriginal inhabitants I really don't know especially as they were only there for about five years when they did come.

SInce the French never owned the islands, there is no way that their title could pass to anyone. The Spanish had a go at colonising the islands but failed. Their claim to the islands was never recognised by the British and they never returned.

 

[diegosimeone]

As I said before just tell me when we got rid of the original inhabitants of the Falklands. Since it did not happen, you won't be able to put a date on it. So it is rather convenient to duck under the guise of being "tired".

edit: and I can reply to whatever parts of your post I see fit. I choose to target the lies about the Falklands.

I don't know what this Falklands place you're talking about is. Please show me where I mentioned them because it seems you are not even replying to things I've said.

 

[Gordy]

I don't know what this Falklands place you're talking about is. Please show me where I mentioned them.

So just as I predicted. You can't put a date on when the "original inhabitants" were supposedly thrown out because it did not happen and the Argentinians were not the original inhabitants.

It's hardly a shocker that you're unable to back up your anti-British rhetoric with evidence but the word games that you are now playing in an attempt to cover up is somewhat new, I suppose. Would it help you if I provided grid reference to the Falklands or would there be a new excuse for not having any sources?

 

[diegosimeone]

So just as I predicted. You can't put a date on when the "original inhabitants" were supposedly thrown out because it did not happen and the Argentinians were not the original inhabitants.

It's hardly a shocker that you're unable to back up your anti-British rhetoric with evidence but the word games that you are now playing in an attempt to cover up is somewhat new, I suppose. Would it help you if I provided grid reference to the Falklands or would there be a new excuse for not having any sources?

What are you even replying to now?

What would help is for you to sit down, relax with the silly condescending tone which doesn't fit you at all because in order to pull it off you actually need to be correct, have a discussion like a normal person and not change or twist the subject in order to derail it from its source.

Now you tell me:
1) Gibraltar. What right do the British have to be ther?
2) Cyprus. What right do the British have to be there?
3) Malvinas. What right do the British have to be there?

 

[Gordy]

What are you even replying to now?

What would help is for you to sit down, relax with the silly condescending tone which doesn't fit you at all because in order to pull it off you actually need to be correct, have a discussion like a normal person and not change or twist the subject in order to derail it from its source.

Now you tell me:
1) Gibraltar. What right do the British have to be ther?

This is complicated but in essence, we are not. Gibraltarians are there. Gibraltarians are a complex mix and passing them off as British is rather simplistic.

2) Cyprus. What right do the British have to be there?

We're not. Cyprus is an independent country.

3) Malvinas. What right do the British have to be there?

THe islands were empty when we created the colony in 1833. Why is this a question? What right do the Greeks have to Athens?

 

[diegosimeone]

Okay, thanks for the confirmation. Viva colonialism.

 

[Gordy]

Okay, thanks for the confirmation. Viva colonialism.

So no sources then?

Why am I not surprised?

 

[Travis_Bickle]

We're not. Cyprus is an independent country.

Cyprus isn't, and has never been an independent country largely due to British influence. Britain could never lose it's unsinkable air carrier in he Middle-East and intentionally manipulated and downright abused the island so that it would forever be British. Akrotiri and Dhekelia are there directly as a result of British colonialism, it wasn't something that Britain "retained" out of some goodwill. I don't know how you can justify this.

 

[Gordy]

Cyprus isn't, and has never been an independent country largely due to British influence. Britain could never lose it's unsinkable air carrier in he Middle-East and intentionally manipulated and downright abused the island so that it would forever be British. Akrotiri and Dhekelia are there directly as a result of British colonialism, it wasn't something that Britain "retained" out of some goodwill. I don't know how you can justify this.

ROFL.

Cyprus is not an independent country........

The UK has bases on Cyprus due to agreements between the two states. You may also note that the USA has bases in the UK due to agreements between the two states.

Now, could we have some sources for your claims about the Falklands?

 

[Travis_Bickle]

Again, when was this Argentinian colony started and when were they removed? If you can't put dates on it, it is because it did not happen.

It's irrelevant, even the UN recognises that the Falklands are inside Argentina's territory. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-islands-argentina-waters-rules-un-commission

But if you must make this argument, even according to wikipedia, the Falklands de facto belonged to France, Spain and Argentina at some point in their histories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute

I also refer you to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uti_possidetis_juris

And you might have forgotten about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_River_Plate ... The British were looking for conquest in the Americas. There was no element of decency in this occupation.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

ROFL.

Cyprus is not an independent country........

The UK has bases on Cyprus due to agreements between the two states. You may also note that the USA has bases in the UK due to agreements between the two states.

Now, could we have some sources for your claims about the Falklands?

You own a house, I steal your house and tell you I'll give you it back but I'm keeping the kitchen. Is it still your house?

 

[diegosimeone]

So no sources then?

Why am I not surprised?

Sources on what? The fact that you are making a fool of yourself to defend modern day British imperialiasm and colonialism?

So Cyprus?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ax.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/dx.html

Gibraltar... Nothing complicated on that. The people who claim to be "Gibraltarean" are British. The rest do not claim so.

The Malvinas is occupied territory on the other side of the world and caused a war. I don't care if you think Argentina's claim is weak when the British claim is non-existent.

 

[olm]

I have always found it amusing how Spanish colonists in Argentina consider it some exceptional historical colonial injustice that British colonists dared to settle on those remote islands where they had had an outpost previously, even though those same Spanish colonists were still very much busy exterminating the actual indigenous people of Americas at that time.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

I have always found it amusing how Spanish colonists in Argentina consider it some exceptional historical colonial injustice that British colonists dared to settle on those remote islands where they had had an outpost previously, even though those same Spanish colonists were still very much busy exterminating the actual indigenous people of Americas at that time.

I think discussing the ethics of colonialism is a bit of a slippery slope to be honest. It's why ridding the world of post-colonial tendencies like Gordy is showing is so important.

 

[Gordy]

You own a house, I steal your house and tell you I'll give you it back but I'm keeping the kitchen. Is it still your house?

So in conclusion the UK is the USA's colony and therefore Cyprus belongs to the USA. End of thread.

I think discussing the ethics of colonialism is a bit of a slippery slope to be honest. It's why ridding the world of post-colonial tendencies like Gordy is showing is so important.

Yes, silly me I think Cyprus is an independent state but you think it's a colony. I guess now that we are leaving the EU, they'll be quiting to and signing a free trade agreement with us. Or perhaps not.

It's irrelevant, even the UN recognises that the Falklands are inside Argentina's territory. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-islands-argentina-waters-rules-un-commission

But if you must make this argument, even according to wikipedia, the Falklands de facto belonged to France, Spain and Argentina at some point in their histories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute

I also refer you to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uti_possidetis_juris

And you might have forgotten about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_invasions_of_the_River_Plate ... The British were looking for conquest in the Americas. There was no element of decency in this occupation.

The UN would say that Wales is part of Argentina, you may not have noticed but a lot of the states have issues with "the West" and the UK in particular.

As for "de facto". Try some actual facts not a link to Wikipedia. Exactly what fact establishes a French / Spanish / Argentinian claim? There aren't any because a claim is not ownership.

And what relevance has the invasion of River Plate got to do with anything?

 

[Gordy]

Sources on what? The fact that you are making a fool of yourself to defend modern day British imperialiasm and colonialism?

So Cyprus?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ax.html

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/dx.html

Gibraltar... Nothing complicated on that. The people who claim to be "Gibraltarean" are British. The rest do not claim so.

The Malvinas is occupied territory on the other side of the world and caused a war. I don't care if you think Argentina's claim is weak when the British claim is non-existent.

So no sources on the Falklands then. What's that four times you've been asked to back up what you said and produced nothing? It's just like old times.

As for Cyprus. Linking to the CIA world book proves what exactly? What fact are you hoping is going to back your assertion that it's not an independent state?

Of course I don't really expect an intelligent or mature response.

 

[Gordy]

I have always found it amusing how Spanish colonists in Argentina consider it some exceptional historical colonial injustice that British colonists dared to settle on those remote islands where they had had an outpost previously, even though those same Spanish colonists were still very much busy exterminating the actual indigenous people of Americas at that time.

It's even funnier when you realise that they didn't have an outpost there at all.

The outpost that they always claim as theirs was actually run by a Franco-German bloke with a deputy from Manchester and was there with written permission from the British. The colony failed and was taken off the islands by the Americans (the Yanks wanted them to stay).

Even if you think a failed colonisation attempt gives you territorial rights in perpetuity, there was an earlier British colony that also failed.

As you notice neither Travis Bickle nor Diego will ever give any details of when the British are supposed to have removed all the aboriginal Argentinian inhabitants. THe reason being it never happened. It is total fiction. I can ask a hundred times and they will never give any details just rant about imperialism.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

So in conclusion the UK is the USA's colony and therefore Cyprus belongs to the USA. End of thread.

What on earth are you talking about?

Cyprus has a clear history and culture that has been extremely consistent over time. At some point in human history, we decided that colonialism and the manipulation of foreign countries is wrong. I certainly think it happened after the 1800s but even at it's latest, the 1950s and 1960s were definitely in a period of time in which colonialism was considered a bad thing. Britain, in the 50s, manipulated not only the island of Cyprus, but Greece and Turkey into conflict so it could control the island.

The British did not want to lose their influence in the Mediterranean, retaining Gibraltar, Malta and Cyprus was absolutely key. Cyprus even more so due to Soviet fears, access to the Middle East and Suez. I'd dare argue devastation at Suez was one of the main reasons Britain was so reluctant to lose all influence in the Mediterranean.

Akrotiri and Dhekelia were granted by the Zurich Agreement in 1959. It was an agreement drafted by Britain that neither Cypriots, Greece or Turkey were originally too happy with and is undoubtedly would led to the bloodshed on the island less than two decades later. It's a clear sign of British tyranny and disregard for human life and the echo of this can be felt in the Middle East (Sykes-Picot), Ireland, the Indian subcontinent and much of Africa.

Yes, silly me I think Cyprus is an independent state but you think it's a colony. I guess now that we are leaving the EU, they'll be quiting to and signing a free trade agreement with us. Or perhaps not.

Cyprus is certainly being treated like a colony.

The UN would say that Wales is part of Argentina, you may not have noticed but a lot of the states have issues with "the West" and the UK in particular.

As for "de facto". Try some actual facts not a link to Wikipedia. Exactly what fact establishes a French / Spanish / Argentinian claim? There aren't any because a claim is not ownership.

And what relevance has the invasion of River Plate got to do with anything?

Again, what are you on about? Do you even read?

 

[diegosimeone]

So no sources on the Falklands then. What's that four times you've been asked to back up what you said and produced nothing? It's just like old times.

As for Cyprus. Linking to the CIA world book proves what exactly? What fact are you hoping is going to back your assertion that it's not an independent state?

Of course I don't really expect an intelligent or mature response.

First of all, learn how to distinguish who you are talking to.

Second, I asked you three specific questions and Gordy being Gordy season 17, episode 10231431241, you're still evading it by asking ridiculous things from others based on your insistence to avoid a discussion and just troll and bait around in hope that you don't get humiliated by not having a proper answer. I'm sorry, but if you're planning on sticking around in this thread, the only dancing will be to the tune of answering questions and not avoiding them and creating meaningless confrontations because you don't like the truth.

I never questioned Cyprus' independence. You were having that discussion with another member.

I questioned the right of Britain to stay on the island of Cyprus. You mock the CIA website by claiming what? That it's fake news? That the British aren't on the island? Do you have the agreement? Did you know that for some time it was illegal for the British to be there? Did you know that the British were also meant to pay the Cypriot government for that use of land but never have?


You are replying to this guy: The person who said that the British colonize AND/OR (and/or [and/or]) - just typing it down many types so that it sticks, usually three times does it - occupies random lands anywhere in the world and then 200-300 years they come and claim that the people that they themselves have installed there as "citizens" or "residents" of said land, claim 'self determination' just because colonialism is cool when we're the ones doing it.

By your reasoning on Gibraltar,the British occupied land of Dekelia and Akrotiri can only decide its fate by making a referendum within its own British citizens about joining the rest of Cyprus, as is your stance on Gibraltar and Spain, and not vice versa. So your argument is that neither Spain, nor Cyprus have a legitimate claim on Gibraltar and Cyprus respectively, since the "people of Gibraltar" and "people of Dekelia" will vote to remain a British colony. I don't care if you don't like the word colony and you think a fancier term is more fitting because you don't like the fact that you're still colonizers in 2019 AD, so you can simply live with it.


So please tell me.

Does Cyprus have a righful claim on Akrotiri and Dekelia?
Does Spain have a rightful claim on Gibraltar?

In the weird parallel universe where you say yes to either, how can these governments get their strip of land back from the British?