Historicity - Culture group "east asian"

[exenter]

Ohhh please, not the Balkans again... Anything but that!

What is wrong with all of you guys in this forum? Every time someone mentions Romanians, Serbians and especially Albanians, everyone will go crazy and the thread is then closed or deleted.

I said especially Albanians because in every thread about Albanians the moderators will delete posts and close the thread temporarily if someone say something like Albanians were the majority in Kosovo and Janina, or they are the descendants of Illyrians, but never will the thread be closed if someone says Serbians are the majority in Kosovo and should also have a core in the province of Albania too in EU3. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you people?

 

[drxav]

To quote Wikipedia:
The forms of the hiragana originate from the cursive script style of Chinese calligraphy.

Listen, you obviously don't have a single clue about this. I got a degree in both Chinese and Japanese. The Hiragana never existed in China. If you read the sentence again you'll see "cursive script style". That means the way you write the character. It's as if a country had taken the italic latin script style and turned it into something totally different.

If we separate out languages based on how people say it, you would need a few dozen cultural groups in China alone.

I wonder what but latin with different accent French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are.

Plus, there are 56 official different languages in today's China. And NO, it's not just accents, it's different languages like Danish, Arabic and Russian.

A Chinese person can read Japanese and understand what it means

No he can't. Dozens of examples to prove that. I'm not talking simple characters, I'm talking texts.

邮局 Chinese for post office
郵便局 Japanese for post office

机场 Chinese for airport
空港 Japanese for airport


There are similarities in the characters, but truly a Chinese can't read Japanese. A Japanese could read Chinese since it's a more simpler language, but the contrary isn't true. An Italian could much more easily read French.

 

[Colombo]

What about to make one step back and define: What is Culture in EU3?

 

[henryjai]

quite interesting debate, but I will post here my opinions.

"Same cultural group" is actually paradox being lazy to balance east asia, yet still want to give Korea/Japan a nice time expanding other than having to suffer from the heavy tax penalty which would completely discourage expansions.

Imagine Korea annexing a few Japanese/Manchu/Chinese provinces, oh! confucianism -50% tax, and wrong culture -30%, hardly any is left. That can't be fun and realistic (their culture is quite similar for such penalty).

Unless they rework the whole east asia I still think they being in the same cultural group isn't a really bad idea.

Historically, east asian nations are way more powerful than they are in EUIII. They are able to field hundreds of thousands of men at ease.(even Korea/Japan could do so!), just look at the men fighting in one rebellion in Qing China, the numbers involved is simply insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Three_Feudatories

a way to make playing China more difficult is perhaps to greatly increase their number of province and base tax, which makes a MASSIVE rebellion much more likely (say, 500+ regiments uprisings if the population is really unhappy or high WE) and makes it extremely difficult for western powers to take over China/Japan/Korea, IRL it's almost impossible to suppress the revolts without a huge army. A further tech nerf is needed if this is the case, and it'd similate that it's unfavourable for those powers to expand. A few more potential "rebel states" would be nice to simulate that everyone wants to takeover China.

Maybe Qing declined in the 19th century, yet the brits still have tough time in opium war until Qing decided to dismiss Lin Zexu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Zexu

The east asians aren't really interested in attacking the relatively poor countries around them because it's costly and not profitable. I think this is to some extent simulated by the -50% tax penalty.

Also, one thing missing in EUIII is that the manchus NEVER managed to take over China/Japanese civil wars , again I think it'd be very nice if we had an expansion/mod about it. The Manchus also "westernized" in some sense that they imported cannons from the Portuguese and they really fielded a HUGE army to defeat Ming/Ming Rebels. It'd be neat to give the manchus some nice decisions/missions to help them do better.

 

[drxav]

True. East Asia is underdevelopped in the game. How about modding it?

 

[henryjai]

True. East Asia is underdevelopped in the game. How about modding it?

A few things are needed for a more accurate east asia, that is.

1. More province, more "rebel states", we need more warlords.

2. Much more decisions exclusively for east asia, it also makes it more unique for one to play as the Manchus or Korea

3. Huge armies, massive revolts.

4. The tendency of not expanding to other parts of Asia, except for Manchus which Qing is probably 3x bigger than Ming. I feel that it should be more epic playing the Manchus.

 

[drxav]

1. More provinces mean remaking the map. I'm all for it. Plus, China alone is as big as Europe.

Would it be inaccurate to blow up Ming as it is and introduce vassal states in it, just like they did for France? What would those states be?

Blowing up Japan is totally historical. There's already a mod about that. We could get some of its features.

2. Decisions would require some historical background. I don't have enough background on those periods. Anyone?

3. Huge armies would maybe inbalance the game and contradict your point 4. I thing that just adding more territory for Ming to crunch within China is the solution. Make Korea a 10 provinces country and Ming won't expand so fast.



I've already posted a thread in the mod developement thread without much success. You could check it out.

 

[henryjai]

I think the main problem is the East Asians lacks something to achieve.

Let's say, it'd be a feat for someone to unify Japan just as some German minor managed to form Germany.

It's same for, say, Manchus, to take over China, should be something quite an achievement yet doable for an average player/AI. Similarly, it should be difficult for Ming to destroy the threats from north (manchus/mongols). Currently it's not any difficult at all.

Making huge revolts more likely is quite a solution for preventing Ming from growing too powerful, as if they have huge revolts it should cripple them for a few years, currently those revolts are mostly jokes.

Also, killing Korea should also be something really difficult as they are able to maintain a quite large army plus they are protected by Ming, you have clearly see how hard Japan tries to takeover Korea.

Generally, they need some larger army to have more interesting games (also for the rest of Asia, perhaps)


I am not quite familar with Korean/Japanese history but I do know some about Ming/Qing dynasties.

some notable events in the eras include:

1. Japanese raiding of Chinese Coast - the Japanese did have raids in eastern China, and it's always a problem in the Ming Dynasty eras.

2. ZhengHe's expeditions - I don't know exactly how many provinces he discover, but he did explored something.

3. Move Capital to Beijing - 6 stab hit? No thanks. Ming move capital to the north for one reason - to counter the threat in the north.

4. Reparations of the Great Wall - since the mongols never raid Ming and the mongols also sucked, who would pay those money for almost nothing?

5. Isolation - it's a response to the constant raids of Japanese, you know what I mean.

6. Manchus become powerful - they not only have a huge army, but also some western weapons.

(there are just too many to state)

 

[ADP101]

I like all of those ideas. Unfortunately, i doubt paradox is gonna do anything more with EUIII, and if they do, its not gonna do with east asia, or any of asia with that fact. Oh well, excited for manga mundi, i know they'll do a good job with asia

 

[Checco]

my previous post is not actually aimed at you, Checco, although you could have taken it as an attempt to rebut your arguments. Being totally honest with you, I haven't read your post closely, but I do believe that you have not mentioned anything about the scales of cultural differences in both parts of the world. I apologize if I have made myself confusing to you all.

Continuing on with my defense here on what I wrote last time, I never said that "everyone" here is making an argument only based on Wikipedia. I found a very few incidences where it seems like someone is making both historically and politically incorrect arguments such as kana letters were shared by Chinese (Wikipedia actually never says this, and I think the quoter misunderstood the article), and hence, the Chinese and Japanese share almost identical writing systems and culture! I never wanted to make such a rude impression to everyone here, but again, if my writing was unclear I do want to apologize again.

There is nothing to apologize, as you did nothing wrong imho.

You also did not make a rude impression to me, and I think that seeing rudeness in both your posts would require malice from the reader.

Maybe I could be the one apologizing, as my reply to your post was prone to be interpreted as 'someone angry for rebutting' (now that I read it again, it could give that impression).

The fact is that during these debates, ppl tend to 'defend' their beliefs and sources (especially the latters, which are subject to personal judgement and could create arguments just by disputing themselves), not to be perceived as the saying here goes: 'Talking to refresh the mouth', and sometimes the defence, even if not going to a flame war, is a bit harsh.

I was a little rude, I apologize, the problem is while I'm not a fanboy of Wikipedia, I think that there is no point to debating if we mark the others' sources as worthless, and if we do not share a common ground, this thread and its discussion will either become a flame war or utterly useless.

 

[Mittermeyer]

I think i have seen posts regarding to the underdevelopment of East Asian country. And IIRC, it's due the inability of AI to simulate the specific behavior for specific countries. Let's say what's in EU3 now is for game-balancing, if we really want to be historical, how do we mod Zheng he's treasure fleet? like... giving China Naval tech 40? However for sure, i do agree on there should be more decisions for non-European countries. I was playing Mongel khanate last day and found there's only 1 decisions for reglion (buddhism), and one other for forming mugul empire. It would be fun to see if they have a "rebuild their empire from Ming".(i know it's non-historical, but would be fun to have, "IF" scenario)

As for the prev post regards to Chinese and Japanese writing system (a bit off topic here)
I do want to mention, Chinese has 2 kinds of characters, Simplified and Traditional. Japanese's character is more similar to Traditional style characters. I can read 90% of Japanese Kanji and would know what it means. (Kanji literally means "Han's character", the characters borrows from Chinese back in Tang times) . Truely, as drxav said a Chinese couldn't read Japanese 100%, but if there's Kanji with it, he/she could guess 30~40% out from it.

 

[Evie HJ]

That is true, but in the same way, I could read a Spanish or Italian text, and, because I'm a native French speaker, understand large parts of it - both languages are derived from Latin after all.

 

[enkhuush]

I like all of those ideas. Unfortunately, i doubt paradox is gonna do anything more with EUIII, and if they do, its not gonna do with east asia, or any of asia with that fact. Oh well, excited for manga mundi, i know they'll do a good job with asia

May be modders should do Asia Mundi.

 

[ltm6942]

off topic but how long do you think it would take for a small galley to make it from one end of Honshu to the other??

also what about a marching army?

 

[unmerged(133265)]

我認為中國文化其實不必劃分的那麼詳細，因為中國有統一的傳統思維，所以這些文化其實本質上都是一樣的，而韓國文化源於中國，區別其實不大，而日本文化相對獨立一些。

 

[hhyy_best]

No he can't. Dozens of examples to prove that. I'm not talking simple characters, I'm talking texts.

邮局 Chinese for post office
郵便局 Japanese for post office

机场 Chinese for airport
空港 Japanese for airport


There are similarities in the characters, but truly a Chinese can't read Japanese. A Japanese could read Chinese since it's a more simpler language, but the contrary isn't true. An Italian could much more easily read French.

As a Chinese, I have to point out though I agree that Chinese and Japanese language has huge difference as you insisted, your example is totally wrong.

First of all, the post office and airport are new concepts adoped in modern times so that it is absolutely possible that they are different in Chinese and Japanese.

Secondly, the Chinese characters are meaning based, so that it is not too hard for the Chinese the guess the meaning of the Japanese hanji characters.

Just using your example, 邮 actually is the simplified version of 郵, which means the post service. the 局 simply means office or bureau. 便 means convenience. Basically they are the same in Chinese and Japanese. Thus, a reader, no matter he is a Chinese or Japanese, can easily guess that 郵便局 means post-convenience-office and 邮局 means post-office.

Also, 机场 can be understand similarly as field for airplane and 空港 as air harbour. I am quite sure that an educated Chinese will not be confused when he see the word 空港.

 

[Colombo]

In europe, we have small picture of airplane. And even Africans could understand.

 

[ericyuen]

First, we should have a Asian map like this.

 

[drxav]

I admit my example was weak since I'm not fluent in Japanese and Chinese. Still, as I said you can read simple characters but not texts.

If I drop that: ハローキティ は、株式会社サンリオでデザインされたキャラクターグッズ用キャラクター群。I doubt you'd catch wat it actually talks about.

One example comes to my mind though: 私. How do you understand that one? And this one: 私達

Just out of curiosity what does this 概要 mean in Chinese?

 

[Nelson007]

In the Ming area:
Han can split to north-han and south-han,other group like Zhuang,Ni,Tujia,Dai,Miao,Yao,Hui……