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The Valkyrier

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I was looking at the cultures of east asia, a part of the map I usually pay very little attention to, and realized that Korean, Japanese and Chinese culture has been forced together in a single culture group. I found this very strange since, for example, India has been divided into no less than 4 different groups (west and east Aryan, Dravidian and Hindusthani). Now I'm fairly familiar with Indian history and I know that India as a cultural and political concept wasn't created until the British Raj in the 19th century, but I would argue that India having different culture groups is less justifiable than say splitting the Latin group, which is a mish-mash of supposed "Italian" cultures, while in fact Italy was just as vague a concept as India. North and South Italy was historically vastly different, and the remains of this difference can be seen even today in Italian politics, even more than 120 years after the unification. Keeping this in mind, and then moving ones gaze to east Asia... well I think you get my point.

Someone might argue that because east Asia shares a political history they could just as well be thrown in with the same culture, and if that's the role culture should play in EU3 then I'll buy that, but in that case you might as well make all of Europe into "European" culture. After all we all sprung from the ashes of Greek and Roman antiquity, and that connection is about as strong as the ties Korea, China and Japan has.

One might also argue that, if I get upset enough to start a thread on it being unjustified to put these distinct cultures into the same group, then why am I not attempting to kill someone over the fact that there is such a thing as the "African" culture group. Well the thing is that Africa is almost always destined to be colonized by Europe anyway. It serves no purpose what so ever to split Africa, because with the lack of centralized states at this time, it would result in a huge amount of groups. Many of these groups would only include a few provinces, all of which would be instant-converted to European culture at the time of the colonialism.

To get back to east Asia, I think that the three "Chinese" cultures (Manchu, Cantonese and Chihan) should be in one group, while removing Korean and Japanese and either putting them in separate groups, or possibly unifying them in one culture group.
 

lee1026

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Culture wise, the East Asians nations are actually quite alike in this period. The divergence that you see today didn't truly start until the Meiji restoration. For example, they shared the same written language, which is something that you really can't say about many of the European culture groups. For example, written Danish is different from written Swedish, but they are still in the same culture group.

As for your recommendation to put Manchu, Han, and Cantonese together, that is quite a absurd idea, as the Manchuians are far closer in terms of culture to the Koreans then to the Hans (at the beginning of the game, at least). This would change over time, but good luck modelling that in the EU3 engine.

Of course, there are no shortage of flaws in the current system, but if you want to accurately depict culture in China at the time, you would need about one culture per province. And you need a way to allow for other cultures to become Chinese, as well as a way for them to stop being Chinese, depending on the provinces that they control.
 

ADP101

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Paradox did a decent job with spliting up the Indian culture groups actually. They're missing some cultures here and there, and I'm not quite sure what the Kannauj culture is supposed to represent but its not too bad.

As for the rest of asia, if you tell a Japanese person they belong in the same culture group as the chinese and koreans, you'll have one angry japanese person lol. They all really need theyre own culutre group. Asia is very underdeveloped in EUIII, just leave it at that lol
 

zChan

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Like lee said, Japan is firmly under Chinese cultural influence until the modern era (1853). Written language was completely in Chinese, used Chinese zodiacs, used chopsticks :p, imported Buddhism and all other Chinese thought, etc. etc.

In fact, I don't understand why Japan has an independent religion. Prior to the restoration Shinto was a small sect in Ise, which gotten the attention of the Meiji government for being "authentically" Japanese.
 
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lee1026

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As for the rest of asia, if you tell a Japanese person they belong in the same culture group as the chinese and koreans, you'll have one angry japanese person lol. They all really need theyre own culutre group. Asia is very underdeveloped in EUIII, just leave it at that lol
Just because you are mad at how history worked out does not mean that history is wrong.
 

ADP101

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Just because you are mad at how history worked out does not mean that history is wrong.

How am i mad the way history worked out? If it didnt work out the way it did, none of us would be alive now :p. And im not Japanese nor do i do much about Japanese history so i have nothing to be mad about :D.

If you really research into it you'll find the "base culture that EUIII uses (language and writing)" is different. Culture wise they have different forms of art, music, society, etc. Their views on the world are completly different, China being more open, and Japan being more isolationist and xenophobic (this era atleast) (and i know how china basically shut their borders in the ming dynasty, but that was that dynasty, the ppl were outraged). As said above there is a major shift durring the meji era

Unless you were referring to how underdeveloped Asia is in EUIII, then we have a problem lol
 

lee1026

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Their views on the world are completly different, China being more open, and Japan being more isolationist and xenophobic (this era atleast)
Well, this is where the system that is used kind of breaks down. In any time period represented in the game, the Chinese and the Japanese are more similar with respect to views on the outside then Japan of 1800 and Japan of 1600. Both societies were much more at the beginning of the game time frame then they are at the end.

But Japan of 1800 have the same culture as Japan of 1600 (in game terms). If those two very different cultures are the same culture, then Japan and China certainly belongs to the same culture group.
 

unmerged(139882)

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Just because you are mad at how history worked out does not mean that history is wrong.

Japan did not have the same language as China? O__o In all of my East Asian studies (I study them ALOT) in no way are they the same. I have a chinese and Japanese friend, and they absolutely hate each other now, and are arguing over that statement. ;P

They had alot of characteristics alike, but the style was completely different in ways. They were culturally INFLUENCED by Ming and Manchu, but not dominated.

To answer the whole Shinto thing, its because the Emperors of Japan were Shinto, and still currently are. As well, Shintoism was the state religion, until Buddhism was brought in. When Buddhism was brought in, the Emeperor stayed Shinto. (Thus keeping the state religion Shinto.) With Shinto and Buddhism being mixed. Not one dominating over the other, mixed. xD Creating some different Buddhism from China. ;P

China was not very open at all. If anything, they practiced isolationism long before the Japanese did. The Japanese only started isolationism because Tokugawa Ieyasu did not like Christianity and Europeans. So when he won the Sengoku Period, and became Shogun, he started Isolationism. Something China had been doing for years.
 
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BRK

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Just for the record,as an example-India has never had an Aryan/Dravidian division. Someone with an overactive imagination and bucketloads of creativity set about creating this myth that has been the cause for so much turmoil in recent times. The vast majority of all Indians share a common genetic origin and are part of the same 'culture' group,with the only differences being geographic/linguistic in nature.

However,considering this is a game primarily aimed at the European/Western market,developed by a company that has absolutely no obligation whatsoever to commit to representing every nation in the world historically-I'd say they've done a fantastic job as it is. I could develop a case for having every Asian nation represented more accurately,but it's simply beyond the scope of the game!
 

The Valkyrier

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The divergence that you see today didn't truly start until the Meiji restoration.
What about Sakoku? Two centuries of more or less complete cultural isolation.

As for your recommendation to put Manchu, Han, and Cantonese together, that is quite a absurd idea, as the Manchuians are far closer in terms of culture to the Koreans then to the Hans (at the beginning of the game, at least). This would change over time, but good luck modelling that in the EU3 engine.
I suggested that because it would be a good balance between game mechanics and historicity. The 20% penalty on tax would be gone, encouraging China to conquer Manchu areas. The idea is basically the same as with moving OE to Semitic rather than Altaic group (cant remember which expansion that was in).

Like lee said, Japan is firmly under Chinese cultural influence until the modern era (1853). Written language was completely in Chinese, used Chinese zodiacs, used chopsticks , imported Buddhism and all other Chinese thought, etc. etc.
As for the "written language": The Japanese used, and to some extent still use, chinese sinography, but that doesn't mean it's the same language. The Japanese writing with the same symbols as the Chinese doesn't make it the same language any more than any other languages with a common writing system.
As for the Chinese zodiacs: The Huns and Bulgars used them too.
Chopsticks? lol? :D

In fact, I don't understand why Japan has an independent religion. Prior to the restoration Shinto was a small sect in Ise, which gotten the attention of the Meiji government for being "authentically" Japanese.
Buddhist, yes, but that doesn't mean there is no cultural differance. The Japanese merged Buddhism in the same way the Tibetians and others did with indigenous religions and added their own cultural flavoring to create modern Japanese syncretism. As far as I know neither Confucianism or Taoism were ever influential in Japan either.
 

lee1026

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Japan did not have the same language as China? O__o In all of my East Asian studies (I study them ALOT) in no way are they the same. I have a chinese and Japanese friend, and they absolutely hate each other now, and are arguing over that statement. ;P
They had the same WRITTEN language, Japan did not have a very different written language until after WWII. (Yes, there are minor difference, but the German culture group have far more variation when it comes to language)

They had alot of characteristics alike, but the style was completely different in ways. They were culturally INFLUENCED by Ming and Manchu, but not dominated.
And Venice was very different from Milan in many ways, yet the game lumps them in together in the same culture.

China was not very open at all. If anything, they practiced isolationism long before the Japanese did. The Japanese only started isolationism because Tokugawa Ieyasu did not like Christianity and Europeans. So when he won the Sengoku Period, and became Shogun, he started Isolationism. Something China had been doing for years.
Both countries had their open periods and closed periods.

In any case, I am not arguing that they are the same, I am merely saying that the differences between China and Japan in this era is smaller then the differences that you will find in Europe between members of the same culture group. Scottish and English culture can get pretty radically different at times too, remember.

What about Sakoku? Two centuries of more or less complete cultural isolation.
Well, China was isolated and static too. If we make two societies that are similar and put them both in stasis, you will find two very similar societies.

As for the "written language": The Japanese used, and to some extent still use, chinese sinography, but that doesn't mean it's the same language. The Japanese writing with the same symbols as the Chinese doesn't make it the same language any more than any other languages with a common writing system.
It is not just the same symbols, if you took a page from a Japanese book of the era and hand it to a Chinese reader of the era, he will have no problems reading it. I am not aware of other languages that have that feature. If we go by certain theories of linguistics, that indeed make it the same language.
 

unmerged(139882)

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And Scotland and England still are. Scotland is still trying to break off. >_> XD I see what you mean though. They are all "East Asian" and have the same sort of language, just different dialects.
 

unmerged(25822)

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If you really don't like it you can just edit the cultures file , you can even place entire Europe under western Aryan :D
Talking about EU3's cultural accuracy : Albanian and Romanian are in the Slavic group....
 

unmerged(139882)

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If you really don't like it you can just edit the cultures file , you can even place entire Europe under western Aryan :D
Talking about EU3's cultural accuracy : Albanian and Romanian are in the Slavic group....

Ohhh please, not the Balkans again... Anything but that!
 

jordarkelf

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You need to realize that "culture" is really a misnomer in EU3. It is not strictly "culture", nor strictly language -- it is used to group several peoples together which historically got along quite well.

If you remap EU3 "culture" to language groups you end up with the situation where Bavarians are in the same culture group as North Swedes, but Hungarians can only get along with Fins; and where Turks can only get along with Mongol Hordes and not at all with Arabs. You will see Germany expand into Scandinavia (or vice versa), Turkey ignoring Europe and going back to Mongolia, etc..
 
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your first mistake is to say things should be done in east asia, because of things are done that way other places. If you want to break up a culture group you should say reasons why the chinese are a different group than the koreans and the Japanese. They are all distinct cultures, but to anyone who has studied them (like me) they are obviously in the same culture group. remember same culture group =/= same culture.
 

BritNavFan

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It is not just the same symbols, if you took a page from a Japanese book of the era and hand it to a Chinese reader of the era, he will have no problems reading it. I am not aware of other languages that have that feature. If we go by certain theories of linguistics, that indeed make it the same language.
And if you take a page from many German books of that era and hand it to an Italian or a Brit or a Pole he will be able to read it - because it will be in Latin. So clearly all the Catholic and ex-Catholic countries should be the same culture group.