Historically Accurate Byzantine Borders/stuff with Gameplay Concessions(769-1066,1118,1143,1337)

[Byzantium2000]

So with the latest patch I though man Paradox is really gonna finally look at the later start dates and make 769 Byzantium look like 769 Byzantium, but I was wrong. So I though id post how they should look but in a way that's still balanced. Paradox if you actually read these please consider this. Forumites read fully before disagreeing or agreeing. Ask Questions galore I've balance tested all my changed starts


Jan,769(Konstantinos Isauros, what a beast)

CHANGES

Titular Duchy of Thessalia is destroyed

Duchy of Ohrid gains county of Astibus from Bulgaria

Duchy of Ohrid gains county of Thessalia from Titular Duchy of Thessalia

Duchy of Croatia gains county of Usora from Serbia

Duchy of Mallorca is vassalized by Byzantium

Emirate of Antioch vassalized by the Abbasid Empire.

Byzantium gains counties of Strymon, Naissus, Mesembria, Tyrnovo, Philippopolis, and Serdica from Bulgaria.

Byzantium gains county of Demetrias and Hellas from Titular Duchy of Thessalia.

Byzantium gains county of Split from Croatia

Khan Telerig of Bulgaria gains Duchy of Oltenia and counties in it from fantasy super vassal.

Constantinople is reduced to 4 built holdings from 7.

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

Its More Historically accurate, Constantinople only had a pop of 100000 compared to its 400000 in 1180, Telerig wont feel the loss of his fantasy territory, Slavs in Astibus were independent, Konstantinos gains notta from 7 extra vassal counties and will feel the pain of Historically accurate 769 Constantinople. Byzantine Dalmatia is made more accurate, Croatia is reconnected, and Serbia is made slightly more stable with its super vassal nerfed. Mallorca wont get eaten by muslims. Political reality of 769 not 700 or 867 is represented. Byzantium still attacks Slavs in Greece over Bolghars. Bolghars historically were on the edge of being driven out of the Balkans if not for the great Krum but this 769 not 801. Titular Duchy of Thessalia is deleted cause its pointless. Byzantium and Abbasids actually border each other like they should. Which is important cause now with Antioch being a key Abbasid vassal like it was in real life the Byzantines and Abbasids now attack each other. Byzantine Vassals will stop declaring unwinnable wars on the Muslims tanking the Orthodox/Iconoclast moral authority. And finally the Byzantines will stop day one expanding out of Anatolia into Syria which if they could have they would have and they do in vanilla.


Jan,867(Basil Macedonian, great Emperor, trash human being)

CHANGES

Duke of Epirus is replaced by a Greek and vassalized by Byzantium.

Byzantium gains County of Split from Croatia

Duchy of Croatia gains county of Usora from Serbia.

Constantinople reduced to 4 holdings.

QUICK JUSTIFCATION

Plays Identically to current 867 except The Best Byzantine vassal start is returned, and Croatia has a actual chance to Form Kingdom of Croatia, Serbia slightly more stable, Constantinople is 867 Constantinople which is basically 769 Constantinople but better days ahead, More Historically accurate and more importantly no more Fantasy Serb flooding the Emperor with extra cash and conquering and assimilating Byzantine targets and historical Territory.


pre and Post William 1066(Michael Doukas, liked roman italy)

CHANGES

Byzantium losses Duchy of Armenia to Seljuks

Byzantium gains county of Tao from Georgia and given to Georgian Strategos Gregory Pakourianos.

Byzantium gains counties Bari and Lecce from Apulia and placed under Arab Strategos Abulchares, and his subordinate the Legendary Naval Commander Michael Maurex.

Normans start at war with Byzantium in a Invasion of Sicily and are given 8000 event troops or 3 times force multiplier like Seljuks.

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

Represents the Political situation between Byzantium, Normans and Selijuks in 1066 not 1072. Byzantium has even more of a fight on its hand, and cause its an Invasion the Normans can try and take more then Sicily like in real life. Got to actually fight in Manizkert now. Though Technically Seljuks and Byzantium weren't at open war in 1066 but Gameplay I understand.

August 15, 1118( Ioannes Komnenos the Beautiful)

CHANGES

Byzantium gains county of Claudiopolis from Rum

Byzantium gains county of Seleukeia from Armenia Minor.

Georgia gains county of Lori from Sultanate of Rum and given to Ivane Orbeli

Byzantium Vassalizes Republic of Ragusa, Duchy of Dioclea, and Duchy of Rashka.

Serbia is Forfeit and split back into the historical rebellious Competing feudal Byzantine vassals.

Armenia Minor gains counties of Teluch and Adana from Titular Kingdom of Antioch.

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

Looks like an actual map of Ioannes Byzantium now, stops Ragusa from day 1 getting destroyed by Serbia and allows it to actually compete as a republic, Byzantium looks Thicc but gets hit by a day 1 Shia jihad and has a hard time remaining stable with so many non Greek and feudal vassals. Surprisingly can still die to Seljuk Blob and optimistic Hungary. Serb Dukes will actually compete for title king of slavs like they should and wont get destroyed by Byzantium in the Process who should already be their vassal overlord . One Game had Grubesa elected Emperor. Byzantium does good under a strong emperor gets rekted under 5 different weak ones. Rum still gets killed by Crusades not Byzantium. Armenia Minor has its historical territory back which for some random not historically supported reason Antioch had. Georgia now a little bit stronger, Historical and slightly less likely to die.

April 8,1143(Manuel Komnenos the Failed Justinian who himself was a failed Constantine.)

CHANGES

Republic of Ragusa vassalized by Byzantium

Serbia forfeit, split between Duchies of Rashka and Dioclea and vassalized by Byzantium as non viceroy dukes.

Byzantium gains counties of Claudiopolis, Amisos, Chaldea, Amorion, and Akroinon from Rum.

Byzantium gains counties of Syrmia, and Soli from Hungary.

Byzantium keeps county of Selukeia from Armenia Minor

Georgia gains county of Lori from Rum(still controlled by some Orbeli guy, who unknown)

Armenia Minor granted Independence and made a Permanent Tributary state.

Empire of Pechenegs Vassalized by the Cumans.

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

Byzantium is even Thiccer then 1118 but that's Historically accurate and Represents the Strength Ioannes who never lost a battle brought to the empire that Manuel inherited. But the Multiple Blobs that surround it, closer Mongols and day 1 Fatimid Jihad Means due to the instability of Byzantine government it can and often does get gangbanged on all sides before finally maybe a Good Emperor takes the Throne or it dies. Ragusa isn't day 1 destroyed, and gives it that historical Byzantine protection. Serbs much more realistic, interesting and Historically accurate. Pechenegs weren't an independent people anymore and Stops the Feudal eating into Wallachia. Armenia Minor being independent is ahistorical but l it stops Byzantium from Going around RUM and Eating the Crusader States while showing still Byzantine control. Most Importantly Ioannes gains are in the Game now. Take that Alexios Fanboys. Peak Post Manikert Great Power Byzantium, made those gains Georgia.

September 24, 1180( Alexios ii Komnenos never had a chance)

CHANGES

Kingdom of Serbia demoted to just Duchy of Rashka

Principality of Antioch is vassalized by Byzantium

Republic of Ragusa vassalized by Byzantium

Armenia Minor is made a Forced Tributary of Byzantium

Emirate of Azerbaijan made a permanent Tributary of Georgia

Byzantium gains counties of Claudiopolis, Sozopolis, Dorylaion, Amisos, Laodikeia, and Sardeis from RUM

Byzantium gains county of Seleukeia from Armenia Minor

Byzantium gains county of Split from Kingdom of Hungary

Kingdom of Georgia gains counties of Lori and Ani from Sultanate of RUM. Given to Armenian Sargis Mkhargrdzeli.

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

Ok technically this is Byzantium's post Manzikert Peak Land wise, but stability wise its downfall and only the downfall was represented in game. Byzantium looks THICC but is weaker then in 1143. Alexios is a average to trash kid in regency with strong Feudal and Viceroy Vassals. all of Byzantium's neighbors got bigger and RUM has its broken as hell vassal 18k Ghilman merc stack. Republic of Ragusa isn't day 1 killed by Serbia, Armenia Minor is the nominal vassal it was till Alexios death and has a 50% chance of survival now if Byzantium can successfully defend it from Rum which ties Byzantium up from expansion. Antioch is the vassal it was till 1183 and actually stays on the map. The Golden age of Georgia under Giorgi iii is now represented and Georgia has staying power on the map.
The Myth that Byzantium also lost core land from Myriokephalon is taken out of the game and only Amorion and Akroinion are under Rum post 1176 cause the Byzantines went on the defensive from then on and lost effective control over the no mans land between Konya and Byzantine Anatolia. Nicaea also wont magically gain inner Byzantine Anatolia anymore. Byzantium has potential but also has problems internally and externally that must be dealt with to succeed.

July 25, 1261(Michael Palaiologos Overated)

CHANGES

Kingdom of Trebizond gains counties of Sinope and Chaldea from RUM

Kingdom of Epirus gains county of Aulon from Byzantium

Kingdom of Sicily gains county of Corfu from Venice

Kingdom of Sicily is transferred the Duchy of Cephalonia from Serene Republic of Venice.

Byzantium gains counties of Astibus and Strymon from Kingdom of Bulgaria

Byzantium gains county of Dorylaion from Rum

Byzantium gains all of the Duchy of Ohrid from Kingdom of Serbia

QUICK JUSTIFICATION

The Restoration of Byzantium at its peak strength is fully represented now in game. The gains made by Theodore Laskaris against Bulgaria and Epirus are now accurately present, and since Michael hadn't yet destabilized Byzantine Anatolia and its infrastructure Dorylaion should still be in his hands, as the Turkmen raids wouldn't really begin for 10 more years and Nicaea had peace with RUM. Trebizond has Chaldea which it didn't lose till the late 1300s and Sinope which it reconquered in 1254. It survives just a little bit longer now. I don't know why Venice had control of the duchy of Cephalonia which it didn't gain till the 1400s, its now the vassal of Siciy which it had been since 1185 and Corfu was taken from Epirus by Sicilian King Manfred in 1259.

Jan 1, 1337( Andronikos Palaiologos He Really tried)

CHANGES

Byzantium Gains Counties of Strymon from Bulgaria.

Byzantium gains Counties of Abydos, Kyzikos and Nicaea from Ottomans.

Byzantium gains counties of Kastoria and Bitola from Serbia.

Serbia gains county of Astibus from Bulgaria.

Andronikos gains a Strong Claim on the Kingdom of Epirus.


QUICK JUSTIFICATION

1337 is the final year Byzantium isn't EU 4 Byzantium, a dying state on life support, and the Current vanilla doesn't show that. Epirus was Claimed by Andronikos a few months after start who had a unrecognized boy ruler.
Serbia is still the new top big boy on the scene but doesn't have its ahistorical post 1341 gains and Bulgaria is the declining boy that loses Strymon to Serbia and Byzantium which it hadn't controlled since the 1200s. The perfect Balance between The Serbs, Ottomans and Byzantium before the Byzantine Civil war of 1341 is now in game, or it would be if not for those dang instant Crusades for Thrace.

OTHER THINGS

-Calling you out Snow you made A lot of Provinces Turkish Sunni even though their under Byzantium and stay that way.
-Crusades hate Turks with a passion
-Manuel Komnenos Son is now a vassal of Hungary along with his sister cause someone gave his province to Hungary.
-Emperors start with multiple duchies causing instant instability to elector titles held.

Finally Gains Made By KRUM to show 769 Vanilla Bolghar borders are dumb. Paradox please consider changes

 

[schondetta]

Your effort is appreciated and I agree with most your changes. Please submit to suggestion forums as well. Also please lay off Manuel . He was pretty bad ass. dont follow all that mainstream byantophile anti-Manuel-delusion-hype

769/867
As someone who is obsessed with The Isaurian period I have not come across a single source that justifies the 769 change. Constantinople had at least nominal control over these parts of Greece. Sure they might of not collected taxes because the mountains are scary or whatever poor excuse we are using but no other part of CK2 follows that standard else there would be tributaries everywhere. MAYBE if this was the early 8th century that argument could be made but NO, not decades into Constantine Vs highly successful reign largely marked by huge fruitful campaigns into Bulgaria and Anatolia that secured the empires borders. Game play wise i dont see how this makes anything better. Arguments to the contrary are abundant actually. Aesthetically it just looks stupid.I would make the same arguments for 867 as well. Again, if it was early 9th century as you pointed out maybe these changes would make sense but even that is weak EG Krums expansion.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I Also think Venice should be a permanent Tributary to Byzantium in 769-867 and forced in 1066 since they helped fight the Norman's and got defacto independence in 1083. As this would be closer to reality and help venice in the early starts against Lombardy but of course I didn't post that in my main post cause I know if I did I'd get downvoted to death for this controversial opinion but just thought I'd throw it out there

 

[Byzantium2000]

Your effort is appreciated and I agree with most your changes. Please submit to suggestion forums as well. Also please lay off Manuel . He was pretty bad ass. dont follow all that mainstream byantophile anti-Manuel-delusion-hype

769/867
As someone who is obsessed with The Isaurian period I have not come across a single source that justifies the 769 change. Constantinople had at least nominal control over these parts of Greece. Sure they might of not collected taxes because the mountains are scary or whatever poor excuse we are using but no other part of CK2 follows that standard else there would be tributaries everywhere. MAYBE if this was the early 8th century that argument could be made but NO, not decades into Constantine Vs highly successful reign largely marked by huge fruitful campaigns into Bulgaria and Anatolia that secured the empires borders. Game play wise i dont see how this makes anything better. Arguments to the contrary are abundant actually. Aesthetically it just looks stupid.I would make the same arguments for 867 as well. Again, if it was early 9th century as you pointed out maybe these changes would make sense but even that is weak EG Krums expansion.

I feel what your saying about vanilla 769 but most historians agree much of mainland Greece outside the coasts was occupied by slavs, obviously they were a minority elite but the fact that future Emperors had to clear them out does suggest they had at least a somewhat firm footing. Epirus should be firmly Byzantine without a doubt but then you dont have a strong enough target for the Byzantines to go after while the Bolghars strengthen. Got an idea to solve that?

 

[Nykyus]

Fully agree with you. It is necessary to give the province of Peloponnese: Monemvasia, Corinth, the province of Macedonia: Thessaloniki, Serraу, Maroneia, give the Slavs. Because Byzantium in the game is unrealistically unhistorically strong.
Although the city of Thessaloniki was not conquered by the Slavs, but they knew the Slavic speech. Therefore, the first Slavic letters were from Solun, the Slavic name of Thessalonica

 

[Byzantium2000]

Fully agree with you. It is necessary to give the province of Peloponnese: Monemvasia, Corinth, the province of Macedonia: Thessaloniki, Serraу, Maroneia, give the Slavs. Because Byzantium in the game is unrealistically unhistorically strong.
Although the city of Thessaloniki was not conquered by the Slavs, but they knew the Slavic speech. Therefore, the first Slavic letters were from Solun, the Slavic name of Thessalonica

Serious question are you trolling me? The whole point of this thread was give Byzantium their Historical borders in a balenced way and slightly buff them in some starts. My response was saying that their were some slavic tribes in central Greece and that their needed so Byzantium will eat them first. Byzantium is literally at the weakest it's ever been and currently stands no chance against the other blobs of the world partly due to their core territory being taking away from them. Taking Thesselonica from them is like taking Paris from France. Let's not turn this into your avar slavic nationalism thread.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Updates Updates, So I redid 769 to see if it I could get even more accurate Byzantine borders and it worked out so now they have Thebes. I tried to give them Epirus and as expected the Slavic states were so weak Byzantium always ignored them and annexed Bulgaria instead, so this the Best historical look 769 Byzantium gonna get with Balance. I then redid 1118, and 1143 to fix Georgia's unhistorical made no sense borders, helped them survive to. I then Added two more Important Byzantine dates the Ascension of Alexios ii and The reconquest of Constantinople on the day. I'm thinking about adding more historical culture and religion makeup for the same starts opinions? Vanilla Turkish Byzantine Provinces and Kurdish Georgian provinces are just nasty. Im aslo thinking about renaming this thread now with the additions of other nations and 1180,1261, but I like the stick out name.

 

[mahidevran]

Nice work. Is there hope that "Better Byzantine Borders" will be found in the workshop eventually, if no update is made by PDX?

Georgian provinces annoy me to no end, though they're a little better than they were a couple years ago in terms of breakdown. Would love to see better historical representations of provinces of west Asia in general.

While you're at it, is there any good way to add a (Balkan) Albanian province before 1066? I know they aren't mentioned in sources until the 11th century, but they didn't suddenly materialize out of nowhere.

 

[Vokasak]

Byzantium is literally at the weakest it's ever been and currently stands no chance against the other blobs

Serious question are you trolling? Have you played CK2 recently? Or ever? Byzantium literally never falls in this game without player intervention. Literally 0% of the time.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Serious question are you trolling? Have you played CK2 recently? Or ever? Byzantium literally never falls in this game without player intervention. Literally 0% of the time.

Your spouting straight nonsense. Byzantium is the weakest it’s ever been and gets rekted guaranteed almost every game now. The multiple games posted on this forum, reddit and my own observer games prove you wrong. Bulgaria is way to op right now my Nationalist friend.

 

[Vokasak]

Your spouting straight nonsense. Byzantium is the weakest it’s ever been and gets rekted guaranteed almost every game now. The multiple games posted on this forum, reddit and my own observer games prove you wrong. Bulgaria is way to op right now my Nationalist friend.

Links?

 

[Byzantium2000]

Links?

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/ahodio/slavic_feudal_jerusalem_in_818ad_huh/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...t_think_ive_ever_been_more_proud_of_an_ai_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/ah1jma/that_moment_when_a_rajput_hindu_raised_as_a/

Took me 5 minutes. I can get you more.

 

[Vokasak]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/ahodio/slavic_feudal_jerusalem_in_818ad_huh/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...t_think_ive_ever_been_more_proud_of_an_ai_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/ah1jma/that_moment_when_a_rajput_hindu_raised_as_a/
View attachment 443543
Took me 5 minutes. I can get you more.

In all of those, all they show is Bulgaria taking a little bit of Greece (and often losing territory elsewhere, like in carpathia). That’s it? That’s what’s got you so upset, yelling OP? You need to relax, friend.

The reddit threads are especially comical. The reason those posts exist is because those situations are the exception. 818 Slavic Jerusalem isn’t typical and to claim that’s a representative game is straight trolling.

 

[Byzantium2000]

In all of those, all they show is Bulgaria taking a little bit of Greece (and often losing territory elsewhere, like in carpathia). That’s it? That’s what’s got you so upset, yelling OP? You need to relax, friend.

The reddit threads are especially comical. The reason those posts exist is because those situations are the exception. 818 Slavic Jerusalem isn’t typical and to claim that’s a representative game is straight trolling.

They flat out lost Constantinople in 2 of those I can find you more but i know no matter the evidence you’r gonna keep acting like your precious Bulgaria is too weak.

 

[Vokasak]

They flat out lost Constantinople in 2 of those I can find you more but o know no matter the evidence you’r gonna keep acting like your precious Bulgaria is too weak.

You literally named yourself after Byzantium. You don’t get to call anything anyone’s precious anything.

Losing Constantinople is plausible, Bulgaria besieged it many times historically, and it only takes one to lose it. But by all means, keep posting threads where the Norse invade Egypt or something and claim it says anything about how a typical game goes.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Why do you call Justinian a "failed Costantine"?

 

[Byzantium2000]

You literally named yourself after Byzantium. You don’t get to call anything anyone’s precious anything.

Losing Constantinople is plausible, Bulgaria besieged it many times historically, and it only takes one to lose it. But by all means, keep posting threads where the Norse invade Egypt or something and claim it says anything about how a typical game goes.

But unlike you I’m not from the Balkans and the ethic group of my flag. Bulgaria sieged it many times but never came close to taking the city once. The Bulgarians always lacked a Navy and you can’t take the city without a navy.

Alright no need to fight each other personally and derail the thread.

I’ve tested the changes. Bulgaria in my 769 almost always destroyes Avaria, Moldavia, and sometimes Serbia. Only 2/10 of the games does Byzantium instantly blitz them, which isn’t ahistorical saying as how the Bolghars were on the defense in 769. 867 Bulgaria literally no change Bulgaria wins against the Hungarians or it loses 40/60 that’s vanilla. 1261 Bulgaria outlasts the Mongols expands into wallachia or gets tributaried by Hungary or Mongols.
1337. Bulgaria tributaries wallachia, eats into Anatolia or gets tributaried by Serbia.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Why do you call Justinian a "failed Costantine"?

Oh cause he failed to Unite the empire under his control, failed to unite Christanity under his reign, Bank rupted the hell out of the empire, couldn’t defend his gains leaving it to Maurice and payed tribute to the Persians. Decent Emperor but not great.
I Rank Basil II, John trizmekes, Constantine I, John Komnenos, Heraclius, Theodore Laskaris all higher.

 

[Vokasak]

But unlike you I’m not from the Balkans and the ethic group of my flag.

You don't know the first thing about me or where I'm from or my ethnic group, internet stranger.

Bulgaria sieged it many times but never came close to taking the city once. The Bulgarians always lacked a Navy and you can’t take the city without a navy.

Yeah you're right, they never even came close and Byzantium could've held them off for years and there was never any danger which is why Simeon I was never able to extract every concession in hiis wildest dreams just by threatening to take the city...oh wait...

Alright no need to fight each other personally and derail the thread.

He said, after a bunch of assumptions about the other person's heritage in the same post.

I’ve tested the changes. Bulgaria in my 769 almost always destroyes Avaria, Moldavia, and sometimes Serbia. Only 2/10 of the games does Byzantium instantly blitz them, which isn’t ahistorical saying as how the Bolghars were on the defense in 769.

769 is a clown fiesta where literally anything can happen:
-Sometimes a Frankia forms, sometimes an HRE, sometimes nothing
-Sometimes you get an early reconquesta and sometimes you see the Umayyads push east past the Rhine
-Sometimes Krum actually gets to inherit, often times Telrig will have a terrible kid dooming Bulgaria to failure, and even if that doesn't happen Krum often dies from food poisoning or soomething before the throne ever finds him.

Pretty much the only constant in 769 is that once the iconoclast stuff finally settles down (And it always does in like 10 years, tops), Byzantium starts eating all it's neighbors alive and by the time the millennium rolls around they've reached the Baltic.

867 Bulgaria literally no change Bulgaria wins against the Hungarians or it loses 40/60 that’s vanilla.

You mean 4/96 right? AI Bulgaria loses to the magyars every time, and once it does Byzantium goes "Oh look someone holding my dejure land just lost all their levies omnomnomnom". It's a far cry from a Bulgaria about to enter its golden age as it does historically.

Besides, after the big stink you're kicking up about how 769 represents Krum's expansion and not Telrig's borders, where do you get off justifying a 867 Bulgarian-Magyar war?

1261 Bulgaria outlasts the Mongols expands into wallachia or gets tributaried by Hungary or Mongols.

Outlasting the mongols is historical. Expanding into (I'm sure you meant to say "re-integrating) wallachia is plausible. Getting conquered by Hungary/Mongols less so, and yet that's the most common outcome.

1337. Bulgaria tributaries wallachia, eats into Anatolia or gets tributaried by Serbia.

I've literally never seen an AI Bulgaria make it into Anatolia at any start date in any of my 1600 hours, much less in 1337 when they hold like 7 counties.

 

[Byzantium2000]

You don't know the first thing about me or where I'm from or my ethnic group, internet stranger.



Yeah you're right, they never even came close and Byzantium could've held them off for years and there was never any danger which is why Simeon I was never able to extract every concession in hiis wildest dreams just by threatening to take the city...oh wait...



He said, after a bunch of assumptions about the other person's heritage in the same post.




769 is a clown fiesta where literally anything can happen:
-Sometimes a Frankia forms, sometimes an HRE, sometimes nothing
-Sometimes you get an early reconquesta and sometimes you see the Umayyads push east past the Rhine
-Sometimes Krum actually gets to inherit, often times Telrig will have a terrible kid dooming Bulgaria to failure, and even if that doesn't happen Krum often dies from food poisoning or soomething before the throne ever finds him.

Pretty much the only constant in 769 is that once the iconoclast stuff finally settles down (And it always does in like 10 years, tops), Byzantium starts eating all it's neighbors alive and by the time the millennium rolls around they've reached the Baltic.



You mean 4/96 right? AI Bulgaria loses to the magyars every time, and once it does Byzantium goes "Oh look someone holding my dejure land just lost all their levies omnomnomnom". It's a far cry from a Bulgaria about to enter its golden age as it does historically.

Besides, after the big stink you're kicking up about how 769 represents Krum's expansion and not Telrig's borders, where do you get off justifying a 867 Bulgarian-Magyar war?



Outlasting the mongols is historical. Expanding into (I'm sure you meant to say "re-integrating) wallachia is plausible. Getting conquered by Hungary/Mongols less so, and yet that's the most common outcome.



I've literally never seen an AI Bulgaria make it into Anatolia at any start date in any of my 1600 hours, much less in 1337 when they hold like 7 counties.

Alright my guy let agree to disagree. I simply think your wrong, over wanking Bulgaria at every turn and simply talking fantasy. Me and many other players have encountered differently. This thread is to give Byzantium and its neighbors more historical borders in a balenced way, i achieved it, their nothing else to talk about. Your just to biased. I will not be responding to your posts anymore, so please say what you got to say and Laisser to some other thread.