Historical Tank Designs Make No Sense? A Case for Custom Tank Design

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Znail

Major
34 Badges
Feb 5, 2019
729
1.220
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Island Bound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
No idea what that has to do with what I wrote.

Your earlier comment was incorrect. There was no doctrin of "dedicated tank-destroyers" most nations started the war with, nor did anyone move away from it. Hardly any nation even had tank-destroyers at the outbreak of the war. (...)
The original Panzer IV had a short barrel howitzer like gun, a 75mm L/24 gun. It was ment for using HE against infantry and fortifactions, similar to M4 Sherman.
The original Panzer III had an anti-tank gun, 37mm L/45 and was ment to destroy enemy armor similar to M10 Wolverine. This may seem like a very weak gun, but remember that this was early in the war and at the time so was the 37mm the standard German AT gun.
Note that the key part of this doctrine was not using anti-tank guns, but that some tanks would use guns unsuited for taking on enemy tanks while the anti-tank ones would protect them.
Germany realised this wasn't an optimal strategy so mostly moved away from it while USA did not until later in the war.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Atlantians

Field Marshal
101 Badges
Nov 25, 2012
2.973
4.481
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
The original Panzer IV had a short barrel howitzer like gun, a 75mm L/24 gun. It was ment for using HE against infantry and fortifactions, similar to M4 Sherman.
The original Panzer III had an anti-tank gun, 37mm L/45 and was ment to destroy enemy armor similar to M10 Wolverine. This may seem like a very weak gun, but remember that this was early in the war and at the time so was the 37mm the standard German AT gun.
Note that the key part of this doctrine was not using anti-tank guns, but that some tanks would use guns unsuited for taking on enemy tanks while the anti-tank ones would protect them.
Germany realised this wasn't an optimal strategy so mostly moved away from it while USA did not until later in the war.

The M3 75 on the Sherman was a dual purpose gun perfectly capable of destroying Pz.III & IV from any angle, and V or VI from the sides or the front within common distances. The 75mm L/24 was half the length of the 75mm M3. They were completely different guns.

An HVAP round was even developed for 75mm M3 but unfortunately not widely produced or supplied. That round would have made an M3 easily capable of dismantling the Pz. V and VI from the front at most combat distances.
Development of the 76mm M1 was pursued instead, which allowed for regular AP rounds to frontally dismantle Panthers and Tigers.

Your understanding of American TD and Armour doctrine is also deficient:
American TD Doctrine was defensive, not offensive. TDs were not intended to 'protect tanks'.

You can read the FMs yourself. American TDs were intended to react to enemy armour breakthroughs and stop breakthroughs.
That would generally be in defense of Infantry, not Tanks.

Many of the American TDs had the same guns as the Tanks, such as the M3 75mm.
They were intended to be fast and cheap, to react to breakthroughs in high numbers, not 'protect' Shermans, which were perfectly capable of protecting themselves.

The whole purpose of American Anti-Tank TD doctrine was to resist encirclement by German armour attempting to 'avoid' engaging American tanks by going around them. This rarely played out in reality as the USA ended up almost entirely on the offensive, making the TD doctrine largely irrelevant.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Jays298

Lt. General
16 Badges
Mar 21, 2011
1.387
2.199
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Imperator: Rome
I would agree that more complexity or detail is needed in the way of tanks. Either in national variations, designers for each tank prototype, or maybe something like MTG did for ships. Granted there isn't as much choice with tanks. And there's also the issue of doctrine, the role of tanks, how to counter them.

But instead of researching a tank, a nation would send out for bids and prototypes from major design houses, and one gets approved and produced. And if they are lucky, the engine and transmission aren't total crap.

Though we might be careful what we wish for.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.742
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
Though we might be careful what we wish for.

Suspect if there is any changes to the Tank Designer, we will see it in Barbarosas.
 

Caeric

Major
50 Badges
Aug 22, 2019
613
972
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
An HVAP round was even developed for 75mm M3 but unfortunately not widely produced or supplied. That round would have made an M3 easily capable of dismantling the Pz. V and VI from the front at most combat distances.
Development of the 76mm M1 was pursued instead, which allowed for regular AP rounds to frontally dismantle Panthers and Tigers.

Correct me if I'm mistaken here but didn't HVAP/APCR-type shells sacrifice considerably in terms actual post-penetration damage in return for the higher penetration?
I was under the impression you needed to be a much better marksman to get the tungsten core inside the round to actually render an enemy tank incapable of fighting by directly hitting the cannon breech or turret ring as the relatively low amount of splinter damage couldn't reliably both incapacitate several crewmembers or critically damage the internals of the tank without a direct hit on the inside?

I know later sub-caliber munitions like sabot that replaced HVAP/APCR and more modern fin-stabilized sabot are less affected by this due to the vastly higher kinetic energy as they travel at super-sonic speeds.
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.458
38.916
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Correct me if I'm mistaken here but didn't HVAP/APCR-type shells sacrifice considerably in terms actual post-penetration damage in return for the higher penetration?
HVAP/APCR was a one-piece shot with the same width as a standard AP shot, but about half the weight (the bulk of the shot was aluminium, with a tungsten alloy core). This gave them phenomenal muzzle velocity due to the lower weight, leading to excellent short-range performance, but their long range performance left a great deal to be desired due to the poor ballistics.

APDS, by contrast, combined excellent penetration with decent ballistic performance (meaning it could actually outperform AP well beyond the range at which APCR started to seriously underperform), but being sub-caliber meant it did less actual damage after penetration than standard AP, and if you missed your first shot it was harder to tell where it had gone (because it was much smaller than a standard shot).
 

Caeric

Major
50 Badges
Aug 22, 2019
613
972
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
HVAP/APCR was a one-piece shot with the same width as a standard AP shot, but about half the weight (the bulk of the shot was aluminium, with a tungsten alloy core). This gave them phenomenal muzzle velocity due to the lower weight, leading to excellent short-range performance, but their long range performance left a great deal to be desired due to the poor ballistics.

APDS, by contrast, combined excellent penetration with decent ballistic performance (meaning it could actually outperform AP well beyond the range at which APCR started to seriously underperform), but being sub-caliber meant it did less actual damage after penetration than standard AP, and if you missed your first shot it was harder to tell where it had gone (because it was much smaller than a standard shot).
Well, technically only the tungsten alloy core would be the part penetrating the enemy tank and to my knowledge the actual internal damage was a lot more limited just as an APDS round would, just with considerably less kinetic energy.
 

Znail

Major
34 Badges
Feb 5, 2019
729
1.220
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Island Bound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
(...)
APDS, by contrast, combined excellent penetration with decent ballistic performance (meaning it could actually outperform AP well beyond the range at which APCR started to seriously underperform), but being sub-caliber meant it did less actual damage after penetration than standard AP, and if you missed your first shot it was harder to tell where it had gone (because it was much smaller than a standard shot).
There was another major problem with APDS during WW2 though and that is that it was difficult to produce with the precision needed for the shots to fly as straight as other simpler ammunition. When US did test shootings with the Sherman Firefly guns APDS ammo so couldn't they get any longer range results as they couldn't hit the steel plate at longer range.
 

Caeric

Major
50 Badges
Aug 22, 2019
613
972
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
There was another major problem with APDS during WW2 though and that is that it was difficult to produce with the precision needed for the shots to fly as straight as other simpler ammunition. When US did test shootings with the Sherman Firefly guns APDS ammo so couldn't they get any longer range results as they couldn't hit the steel plate at longer range.
Absolutely, it certainly had some problems with reliably hitting targets.

That said in my experience, at least when it comes to how the shell types are modeled in tank games I've played, HVAP/APCR tends to be more of a last resort if you have no other means of dealing with your current target as the actual resulting damage is miniscule and surgical, APDS being a compromise and standard AP ammunition being preferable whenever practical.

Edit: And no, just to clarify, I'm not talking about shitty arcadey games like WoT.
 
Last edited:

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.458
38.916
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
I know later sub-caliber munitions like sabot that replaced HVAP/APCR and more modern fin-stabilized sabot are less affected by this due to the vastly higher kinetic energy as they travel at super-sonic speeds.
Oh, missed this bit:

All kinetic (as opposed to shaped-charge explosive) anti-tank munitions are supersonic :)

A few of the most modern APFSDS rounds reach hypersonic (Mach 5 or higher) velocities.
 

squid_hills

Second Lieutenant
32 Badges
Oct 1, 2019
179
359
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
I think PDX should fix the AI's use of the navy research/ship builder before they give us a tank designer feature the AI will also fail to use correctly. As it stands right now, the AI seems to just produce 1936 ship designs ad infinitum, regardless of what other technology is available. Has anyone ever seen the AI produce a 1940 battleship? Carrier? Heavy cruiser?

Not to mention the exploits that exist within the system that the player can take advantage of. Why bother learning how screens work and the correct screen/capital ship ratio when you can just spam sub 3/4s and win? Or how the AI will happily suicide itself on a naval minefield as long as you actively contest the sea zone with some ships? Or how you don't even need carriers at all, as you can just lure the enemy to contested coastal zones and sink them with land-based torpedo bombers?

True, in multiplayer the system actually gets used, but in single player it's a mess because the AI doesn't utilize it properly.

if we get a MtG style tank designer, we're likely to run into the same situation that we have with naval combat. You think beating the AI is easy now? Wait till Germany starts spamming Panzer IIs right into 1945...
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Vlad123

Lt. General
1 Badges
Feb 7, 2015
1.669
1.290
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I think PDX should fix the AI's use of the navy research/ship builder before they give us a tank designer feature the AI will also fail to use correctly. As it stands right now, the AI seems to just produce 1936 ship designs ad infinitum, regardless of what other technology is available. Has anyone ever seen the AI produce a 1940 battleship? Carrier? Heavy cruiser?

Not to mention the exploits that exist within the system that the player can take advantage of. Why bother learning how screens work and the correct screen/capital ship ratio when you can just spam sub 3/4s and win? Or how the AI will happily suicide itself on a naval minefield as long as you actively contest the sea zone with some ships? Or how you don't even need carriers at all, as you can just lure the enemy to contested coastal zones and sink them with land-based torpedo bombers?

True, in multiplayer the system actually gets used, but in single player it's a mess because the AI doesn't utilize it properly.

if we get a MtG style tank designer, we're likely to run into the same situation that we have with naval combat. You think beating the AI is easy now? Wait till Germany starts spamming Panzer IIs right into 1945...
Does he only use PZIV and tiger in my games?
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.458
38.916
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Even standard AP/APC/APCBC rounds?
Yes.

The US's M61 75mm APCBC round had a muzzle velocity of 618m/s when fired from the Sherman's 75mm gun M3.

The UK's 2pdr, 6pdr, and 17pdr AT guns all fired their stock AP shell at muzzle velocities above 800 m/s.
 

Caeric

Major
50 Badges
Aug 22, 2019
613
972
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
Yes.

The US's M61 75mm APCBC round had a muzzle velocity of 618m/s when fired from the Sherman's 75mm gun M3.

The UK's 2pdr, 6pdr, and 17pdr AT guns all fired their stock AP shell at muzzle velocities above 800 m/s.
Sorry I'm a complete idiot, for some reason I got the numbers in km/h vs m/s utterly mixed up. Forgot 273+ m/s actually is enough for mach 1.
 

jpd

Entil'Zha Anla'Shok
Moderator
41 Badges
Apr 19, 2001
8.038
1.757
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
Besides the 'freedom' aspect, I think in-universe wise, this would make way more sense than just planning to research existing historical tanks because World War II tanks weren't exactly 'planned' years ahead. No, most tanks were designed in response to encounters with new challenges and opposing tanks. You shouldn't be able to build a Tiger tank without facing the Russian T34s and KV1s for example. Or at least, in HoI4 maybe because it's 1941 and Germany has only been fighting France, Germany might have a heavy tank chassis, but no 88mm gun because technically it wasn't necessary like it was when Germany went up against the Soviet tanks with their sloped armor.
Yes, this is how it has played out in real life.

But, and this is the crucial part, somebody has to be the first to come up with a new design.

Why would you deny the germans developing their tiger without encountering the KV-1 first, but allow the russians to develop their KV-1 without such restrictions?

This is a game, after all. Not a history lesson + war movie.
 
  • 1
Reactions: