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Varyar

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Johan said:
There's only one solution, and that is to make lesser scope in the games that can be balanced properly before release. This means much simpler games, but they will be stable, and all playable countries tested and all mechanics 99.99% balanced before release. And this becomes a regular 9-5 job for me, and I'll let marketing guys handle customers and post-release support, as I'm not putting in anymore weekends now for that. (Which have been the entire patch-system we've had since eu1, if you dont count the first month after a project is released.)

Well, if you prefer to have it that way or if economical reasons force you to do so, then I suppose we common folk simply have to accept that. It doesn't look good from where I'm sitting though. "lesser scope", "simpler games", "regular 9-5 job", "marketing guys handle customers and post-release support"... I was hoping the future would bring quite the opposite. Ah well, maybe I should shut up until I've actually played these future games ;)
 
Johan said:
Usually about 200-250 people get into the betas. About half of all that get into a beta does not even report back after getting the installer, and another huge part contributes so little that the administration of them, gives too little return that its not worth it.
I can certainly understand how this is, and why a stable group of testers is preferable.
It would seem to myself that the stability of testers could be measured right on this board, there are a number of well thought out and active posters, seek them out as testers if they aern't already so employed. Canvas any of the regualr posters, they can quickly point out the folks who know what they are talking about. Ten excellent testers are worth infinitly more then 250 random testers.

Obviously the scope of the games we have been aiming for does not fit the development budgets we have.
I understand this also, the desire to add 'one more thing' can often lead to problems. That does not mean, however, that other avenues cannot be explored and solutions found.
There's only one solution, and that is to make lesser scope in the games that can be balanced properly before release.
That is one solution, not the only one, as I mentioned above, high quality testers could certainly improve matters, and I'm sure you already have a good stable of trust worthy people to use.
This means much simpler games, but they will be stable, and all playable countries tested and all mechanics 99.99% balanced before release.
Simpler doesn't always mean stable, or even very interesting.
And this becomes a regular 9-5 job for me, and I'll let marketing guys handle customers and post-release support, as I'm not putting in anymore weekends now for that. (Which have been the entire patch-system we've had since eu1, if you dont count the first month after a project is released.)
Unlike the other people who commented, I think this is actually an excellent idea, and I'll say why.
For reading your various posts, you seem worn down and dispirited by the lack of sales and negative feedback.
What your suffering from is called DEDICATION, and you will find that in all the quality people you meet in this life. I think a step back, recharge your creative batteries so to speak, and a things will certainly start to look better. Afterall, look at all the supportive good words you recieve here, and all the people who very much appreciate your efforts (and I include myself in that group).

Relax some, enjoy life a bit, and then I'll wager you will be ready to tackle new challenges with superior ideas and increased vigor.

Anyway it goes, let me say personally, thank you for fine games that have given me many hours of enjoyment, and may you only know sucess in future endeavors.:cool:
 

Emre Yigit

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Extremely deterministic events are very boring. However, I far prefer EU2 where there were plenty of events. Some were quite awful, some good, all of them added to the fun.

If you take the example of the nation I play most - the Ottomans - with the exceptions of the early Egyptian war and the Crimean brouhaha, it's all plain sailing. Give me the Ottomans in 1836 and I can turn them, most times, into the world's foremost industrial and military power by 1916, at which time they were historically on the verge of dissolution.

OK, so maybe its fun, but for the last 30 years or so the absence of any events (and bad ones in particular) do detract from the sense of accomplishment.
 

unmerged(14180)

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Theodotus Has summed up in one post many things i have waffled on less coherently in various posts.

My advice is to listen to that post above, and really read his points Johan, Having read through it 3 times now to try to find something different to say, i cannot really find anything at fault.

Your Distributors are pure garbage, you guys must find a better way, and what has been suggested is perfect.

Lets face it, Strategy games with the same open endedness, and at the same time, Historical Options do not exist.....

If Paradox changes its gameplan now, it will lose a large amount of fans that have gotten used to more than just a rehash of EU2, It will also, regarding your 'marketing support' comment, also lose its taste for Pardox by dealing with the idiotic and frustrating faceless, nameless Bureucracy...The canned email responses....The totally souless 'help' of someone that really doesn't give a tinkers cuss about the subject material, and is merely working for paradox because it is a job.

That is what we all get with many other Software companies, Part of the Paradox charm is the fact that the guys behind the Whole thing get involved with the customers.

Look how popular these forums are? I am probably just an idiot, but i have never seen a bunch of forums that have been so popular, with so many different people, from so many different nationalities on one board.

As stated, go to various posts here from Forumites, funnily enough especially from the so called 'complainers' ;) and really read them, and in particular, go back to Theo's post and read that....at least 3 times.

The 'Love Johan' posts will certainly give you a high, but no practical advice at all which i am thinking is seriously needed at this moment.
 

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Dinsdale said:
If the betas dried up then they should have recruited more. I could name about a half dozen off the top of my head from this forum who would have been excellent additions (yourself, FFZ, JScott, Darkrenown, Rafiki, Sapper_Astro and many more) to the betas if they needed manpower.

Hey, thanks. I did apply, but I was turned down. Maybe Paradox will listen to you and I can test Vic2 :)

For my part I like events, but I don't like them to be too rigid. Events like Spain's bankruptcy in EUII or Mexico's debt in Vic that fire even when the country is doing well, or the way forming Italy depends on France (changed in 1.03) annoy me. Semi-rigid events like "Go to war with X because of Y yes/no?" are quite good and add to the flavour of the game. Stuff like the conservitive empire and the 1.03 civilizing event are just neat and more like that should be added.
 

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XieChengnuo said:
For example, bundled with every beta that gets included is the risk that that beta might put the game on Kazaa - so a bigger beta group is not necessarily always better.

Most companies with a selected-group beta personalise each copy so if one does pirate it they know who to sue. I belive it was a review copy of Vic that was pirated, they were ment to be modded in that way as well but weren't.
 

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Johan said:
. There's only one solution, and that is to make lesser scope in the games that can be balanced properly before release. This means much simpler games, but they will be stable, and all playable countries tested and all mechanics 99.99% balanced before release. And this becomes a regular 9-5 job for me,

Nooooooo! Please don't do that Johan, keep making the games we both love!
 

Brannart

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Haba said:
After Reading quite many partially narrow-minded claims for more historical accurate events I would like to set a contrast by suggesting that scripted events - if they're outcome is determined - add linearity and predictability to a game and make it less replayable.

The historical setup (starting position; strength and capabilities of countries) and historical context (units, factories etc.) make Victoria authentic, credible - thus adding symbolic value where there is no 'country unknown 1' beating 'country unknown 2', but e.g. UK beating France with 80 cavalry units.
Unimaginative historians who claim for more accuracy of historical outcomes of the gameplay are more likely to enjoy historical movies and books than playing a strategy game where managing the (economic and military) strategy of a nation obviously means changing the history by the player.

3 Examples:
"Playing China you have to lose exactly 1 colonial war against France and 1 against the UK, and - in any case - make sure you do not win any of those wars - otherwise you'll never become civilized !"
I would far more enjoy playing China if those events were canned.

"The Netherlands, which usually only colonizes southeast Asia has gone nuts in Africa"
Great ! This demonstrates the variability of the AI engine and makes the game more replayable than if outcomes were fixed.

"Why was Mexico in the Spanish American war in the first place? If in real life they were ..."
So what ? Why shall an intelligent AI be restricted to historical happenings if it's capable of making its own decisions based on the situational gameplay ?

Excellent post. I've been saying this and debating it (with BiB, long, long ago) forever and I'm glad to see it finally get some support. Well done.
 

unmerged(21796)

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i, for one, would like to see more diplimacy options, maybe more options when making peace too, Like giving land to your allies, and maybe reserch trading that costs 8 instead of 10, because it should take less time to be tought then to learn something yourself
 

unmerged(23799)

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[v. long post]

I posted this in the How Likely Was Italy to Form? Topic below, but it's right on topic for this one.
Like all questions regarding probability of history, this one requires us to consider whether, say, the (admittedly artificial) event "The Unification of Italy" constitutes the 'default' for probable outcomes.

This is a major philosophical problem.

In RL, there was no Unification of Italy event in history (at least, not in the same way as there was, this morning, the event Hochelaga Wakes Up or Hochelaga Drinks a Cup of Coffee). If history is linear (it may not be), then in RL there were in fact a series of tiny events that coalesced into what we call the Unification of Italy (e.g. Garibaldi Wakes Up, Cavour Drinks a Cup of Coffee). Without those tiny events, who knows? Maybe Garibaldi sleeps late, Cavour doesn't get his caffeine, and the Austrian generals take advantage. No Italy. In a linear history model, it's very hard to take the Unification of Italy (or any event) as a single, discreet event.

However, if we ignore all of that (I often do myself), then it might be possible to consider, abstractly, the likelihood of the event the Unification of Italy occurring in isolation. This requires setting up camp with either the view that:

(a) Italy unified in real life, real life is the default, therefore Italy was more likely to form than not (the Planned History Theory); or

(b) Italy unified in real life, but considering the multitude of possibilities Italian unification in real life was a fluke and should not stand in as the default (the Coincidence Theory); or

(c) Italy never unified in real life, because I live inside my copy of Victoria and it is those things on the outside that are artificial, therefore whatever happens in Victoria is exactly real and true (the Nutcracker or WAD Theory).

Leaving aside possibility (c) (which to many -- including myself -- is the most attractive but least likely), we are left with the Planned History Theory and the Coincidence Theory.

Planned History Theory

Real life is the model for the simulation. Italy unified in real life. Therefore, it should be more likely than not that Italy unifies in the simulation.

Perfectly acceptable theory. Totally ignores the minute complexities of linear history, of course, but that is necessary to keep the Victoria game files down below 8 million terabytes+ in size. In my view, the best option for game play, because I think on the whole player's expectations are that things *like* what happened in RL should happen, with some (occasionally radical) variation. In the particular example of Italian unification, I think it would be acceptable if:

In 50% of games, Italy unified as it did or in a like manner as in RL;
In 25% of games, Italy partly unified or unified in a manner unlike RL; and
In 25% of games, Italy did not unify.

That would be a huge improvement over the present, which is:

In 100% of games, Italy did not unify (correct me, please, if anyone has seen an AI unify Italy in any of the millions of games this community has played).

Coincidence Theory

Real life is not the model for the simulation. Chaos theory and complex mathematics are the model for the simulation. Italy unified in RL because of changing weather patterns in Taipei.

Also a perfectly acceptable theory. When you consider the myriad of possibilities (as we are required to do every time we play!), we realise that ANY event, however discrete, is unlikely. A complex series of events culminating in the event the Unification of Italy is extraordinarily unlikely. Impossible even.

If in 1855 someone told you that within 15 years the fragmented nation states of the Italian peninsula would, with some exception, form one country, you would have (be honest) offered odds of 1000-1, or at least odds to 1 corresponding to the number of states... 14-1? 15-1? It's a longshot. You wouldn't bet on it.

In this model, proponents would like the following outcomes:

7% Italy unifies as it did in RL;
3/100% Italy unifies as it did in RL except for Parma;
1/100% Italy does not unify as it did in RL and Garibaldi's armies turn on the Ottomans... etc.

Probably, in this model, the favourite to win would still be the real life outcome because of our penchant for re-creating history (with often minor differences, occasionally major differences, rarely radical differences).

But note that even under this model:

In 100% of games, Italy did not unify.

... is still garbage.

Middle Ground

The middle ground for any event in the Victoria simulation seems to me to be something like:

-- A little more than half the time, events work out as they did in RL. (55-60%)

-- Often, events work out slightly differently than they did in RL. (20-25%)

-- Occasionally, events work out significantly differently than they did in RL. (10-15%)

-- Rarely, events work out radically differently than they did in RL. (5-10%)

Admittedly, this is a Planned History model. The problem with using a Coincidence theory is that is that the simulation cannot possibly calculate all the possibilities, which means that we end up with artificialities (which thankfully, we can overlook -- I mean, if Italy unifies while Garibaldi is still making candles in Manhattan, who cares?).

So those are my thoughts.

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While I appreciate the theories (and that was an excellent post) about how events should script VIC history, I think that we need to look at another factor:

There are some things that VIC does not simulate.

Without events, Italy could not form as it did. Nor could the Civil War end with a total re-anexation of the confederacy, nor could we simulate in any way the particular artists and personalities involved in a situation. The engine doesn't do that.

So, I view events as being a sort of 'patch' for the game to represent elements that otherwise wouldn't be represented. That's its most important quality, since - as we all know - sometimes the minute things which very few games could possibly simulate have a major effect on the world.

Then there's the second - to make it more interesting. Frankly, I like having my custom 'The Assassination of President Carnot' event firing in 1894, just because it adds colour. It's nifty.

No one wants total rigidity, and any statement to the contrary is mere rhetoric. Ultimately, all of the theories that have been proposed in this thread come down to just how much rigidity one wants in the game, or how much colour one can tolerate before it becomes rigid.

I view events as being 'the force of history' and if I work against them, then I ought to end up fighting the tide.
 

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All what I have to say on the matter of beating the very much dead horse: if I want history I will read a book, but if I want gameplay and sheer fun I will play Vic.
:rolleyes:
 

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Johan said:
Usually about 200-250 people get into the betas. About half of all that get into a beta does not even report back after getting the installer, and another huge part contributes so little that the administration of them, gives too little return that its not worth it.

Obviously the scope of the games we have been aiming for does not fit the development budgets we have. There's only one solution, and that is to make lesser scope in the games that can be balanced properly before release. This means much simpler games, but they will be stable, and all playable countries tested and all mechanics 99.99% balanced before release. And this becomes a regular 9-5 job for me, and I'll let marketing guys handle customers and post-release support, as I'm not putting in anymore weekends now for that. (Which have been the entire patch-system we've had since eu1, if you dont count the first month after a project is released.)

The problem is: The whiners complain, shout here and there. But if you take a good look, in every complain thread, the same members are complaining about the same thing, the topic doens't change, ever! It's like a spam.

While the people that like the game, are playing the game and using the forum time, working to improve the game, in VIP, in Community Mod, in Unknown -x-, and lot of others.

Please don't stop making good games, like EU2, HoI and Vicky. Open another line of games, simple games, but don't forget us hardcore player that doesn't find any other place a decent level of competition.

Edit: To those that doesn't like too much events, go play vanilla. To those who want historical events help us in VIP.