Historical Realism of TAC/Medium Bombers being lackluster

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Balesir

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historically, on the UK side, the Mosquito was capable of delivering more ordnance, faster, more accurately, using less avgas, aluminium, and aircrew, than the 4-engine heavy bombers.
Anything the Stirlings and Halifaxes could do, the Mosquito could do cheaper.

Only the Lancaster could do something that the Mosquito could not - carry the Grand Slam and Tallboy bombs. But those were a tiny minority of Lancaster missions.
While in general I agree with you completely here, I have been doing some reading about the early bombing raids on Italy and will point out that Whitleys, Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancs could all deliver superb accuracy if not troubled by such things as flak, night fighters and blacked-out targets. Oil refineries bombed from 700ft make a lovely big bang, but watch out for the 400ft high flames, apparently.

I'll also note (with a bit of shameless self-promotion) that I think that "tactical bombers" actually fall into two distinct classes: medium bombers and fast bombers (and I treat them as separate in the Waltzing Matilda mod). The difference could be said to be in doctrine around how they are used, but this bleeds very significantly into the aircraft design. Recall that the original Mosquito bomber had no guns at all - it relied on pure speed not to be caught by the defending fighters (defensive guns being almost no use whatsoever against flak). In WM I have 'fast bombers' related to heavy fighters (they were often the same base aircraft), while medium bombers share a branch with long-range maritime patrol (as opposed to torpedo strike).
 
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sekelsenmat

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I wish I could find the quotation again, but at one point Goering was unhappy with aircraft development of larger planes. He cursed those who told him that a two engine bomber could do everything (ground attack, strategic bombing, and so on) well.


>>>In April and May 1941, Udet had led a German delegation inspecting Soviet aviation industry in accordance with he Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. Udet informed Göring that the Soviet air force and aviation industry were very strong and technically advanced. Göring decided not to report this to Hitler, hoping that a surprise attack would quickly destroy Russia.[14] Udet realized that the upcoming war on Russia might destroy Germany.<<<<

Considering what I've read on the Luftwaffe, I wouldn't trust Goering on anything, but maybe he was referring to the Griffen whose development was severely impacted by a stupid requirement of dive bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

Back to strat bombers vs TACs, yes the Strat bomber can deliver a larger payload at greater distances, but for precision targets is the extra payload really needed?

I feel their main advantage was being stronger versus fighters, requiring heavy fighters to shoot them down or heavily armed fighters, and longer range.

The extra payload shouldn't cause such a huge difference in the strat bombing stat, because strat bombing in reality was much less powerful than in the game. German tank and aircraft production wasn't really stopped, despite all the raids. The main success of the raids was against oil targets (would be synt plants in the game), which doesn't require so much power to destroy them.

The main use of the allies for the extra payload was to carpet bombing without aim, which was proven pointless in anything except reserving a place in hell for war crimes.

On the other hand, there is the thing that in the game IC expands hugely in a ahistorical fashion, so maybe the OP strat bombing is required to balance this. So maybe simply later TACs could have their stat increased to 15/20/25 from 14/16/18...
 

Balesir

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The extra payload shouldn't cause such a huge difference in the strat bombing stat, because strat bombing in reality was much less powerful than in the game. German tank and aircraft production wasn't really stopped, despite all the raids. The main success of the raids was against oil targets (would be synt plants in the game), which doesn't require so much power to destroy them.
I think this is a good point, because there is a good deal of diminishing returns on dumping more and more bombs on the same target. In rating aircraft, I have generally reckoned that the "bombing power" is roughly proportioned to the square root of the bombload. The exception to this would be, as @Louella mentions, the additional penetration power that can be gained from very large bombs.
 
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Louella

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I'll also note (with a bit of shameless self-promotion) that I think that "tactical bombers" actually fall into two distinct classes: medium bombers and fast bombers (and I treat them as separate in the Waltzing Matilda mod). The difference could be said to be in doctrine around how they are used, but this bleeds very significantly into the aircraft design.

Yeah, I've thought about this as well. The "Tactical Bomber" is a very broad category, as it includes basically all the twin-engined bombers. Including light twins intended for torpedo attack (e.g. the Beaufort), as well as the heavy twins like the Wellington.

The problems as I see them, are that it's difficult to fill out roles to make multiple lines of aircraft types that offer a distinct reason to use them.

Like, say we have a "heavy twin" tactical bomber - represented by the Whitley, Wellington, and Warwick. These would be better at strategic bombing than close air support.
Then you could have the "light twin" tactical bombers - the Blenheim, Beaufort, and Brigand. Better at CAS and naval strike, than strategic bombing.

Where then would the Mosquito fit ? a third type of tactical bomber ? or as a superior model of "heavy twin" ?

And then there's how to fill out the research of the different types, even with paper or failed projects, there's not always enough distinct types of aircraft to populate the tech tree.


I think perhaps too, that advances in rockets, bombs and air-dropped torpedoes, could be modelled as distinct technologies, so that e.g. naval strike doesn't necessarily go up with the aircraft model, but by the weapon techs.

E.g. tac bomber 1, has the stats naval_strike_attack = 8
while tac bomber 2 has the stats naval_strike_attack = 12

so, instead of that being the case, then it would be "armour piercing bomb" tech, to give tac bombers +50% naval strike.
 

Anaraxes

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If TACs were the best at any particular mission, there's be no point in having that other plane type.

The point of TACs is flexibility. Your strats can't start going ground support, nor can your CAS take out supply routes, nor you NAV start hammering factories after the enemy fleet is sunk. And when your mission requirements change -- and they will -- a TAC fleet can immediately adapt. 1000 planes can do 1000 strat, or 1000 GS, or 1000 nav/port strike, on a day to day basis. 300 NAV, 300 STR, 400 CAS can't do that. You have to realize you need some more planes, and wait while you build a few hundred of them. The 1000-plane TAC fleet can do everything the 3-type fleet can do, at the same cost in IC -- while taking only 1/3 of the research time.

Maybe there are roles you don't care about, but that's not a problem with TAC, just a consequence of the limited environment created by the strategic planner. You don't build battleships to invade Yugoslavia, either, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with BBs, and their stats should be changed to be better than those of medium tanks.

There are some interesting points upthread about attacking specific sorts of infrastructure and logistics. But that's not really an argument for making TAC better in the existing mechanics. It's an argument for increasing the granularity of the air combat missions. Split the "air superiority" stats into "air superiority" (fighting for the skies) and "interdiction" (doing something to enemy ground forces -- the current slowing and air support bonuses). FTR would be better AS while still capable of interdiction (P-47s, Typhoons, etc). TAC help you take air superiority not by having a great air combat number, but by being useful for taking out enemy air superiority planes and facilities. Similarly, split the strat bombing rating into... let's call them "strategic bombing" (factories, resources, infra, ports, forts) and "operational bombing" (infra, airfields, radar). TAC > STR at operational targets, STR > TAC at strategic targets. Operational bombing is harder to intercept than strat bombing, so you're more likely to get away with it (if with higher casualties) in the face of enemy air superiority. Rename ground attack "tactical bombing" if you really want to complete a parallel triad of bombing names.

Break up the mechanics a bit, and you've got room to carve out a distinct role where TAC can have the highest number to claim they're "the best" and have an obvious application for the generals with singular focus, without making them fantastic air-air dogfighters (by just cranking up the air superiority rating) or out-performing STR in everything but extreme range.
 
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sekelsenmat

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The problems as I see them, are that it's difficult to fill out roles to make multiple lines of aircraft types that offer a distinct reason to use them.

Like, say we have a "heavy twin" tactical bomber - represented by the Whitley, Wellington, and Warwick. These would be better at strategic bombing than close air support.
Then you could have the "light twin" tactical bombers - the Blenheim, Beaufort, and Brigand. Better at CAS and naval strike, than strategic bombing.

Where then would the Mosquito fit ? a third type of tactical bomber ? or as a superior model of "heavy twin" ?

The "light twin" already exists in game, it is the "Heavy Fighter", see the wikipedia article on Blenheim, no-where it says it is a "Medium Bomber", it is classified as a "Light Bomber / Heavy Fighter": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Blenheim

So we can keep things simple: No need for even more aircraft types, and make the Heavy Fighter which is currently very niche into something more useful, by giving him a medium Naval attack capability and a small "Ground attack" stat.

Break up the mechanics a bit, and you've got room to carve out a distinct role where TAC can have the highest number to claim they're "the best" and have an obvious application for the generals with singular focus, without making them fantastic air-air dogfighters (by just cranking up the air superiority rating) or out-performing STR in everything but extreme range.

Well, but heavy fighters already have a bigger "air superiority" despite being inferior in dogfight.
 
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I think this is a good point, because there is a good deal of diminishing returns on dumping more and more bombs on the same target. In rating aircraft, I have generally reckoned that the "bombing power" is roughly proportioned to the square root of the bombload. The exception to this would be, as @Louella mentions, the additional penetration power that can be gained from very large bombs.

Which strat bombing stat values exactly do you propose for the 4 TACs and 3 STRs?
 

Balesir

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Where then would the Mosquito fit ? a third type of tactical bomber ? or as a superior model of "heavy twin" ?
It's a final tier piston-powered fast bomber/fighter.

The 'fast bomber' type fits dornier (2)17s and Ju88s to a 'T', too.

And then there's how to fill out the research of the different types, even with paper or failed projects, there's not always enough distinct types of aircraft to populate the tech tree.
Well, the way I do it is to have the main techs be (single engine) light bombers, fighter(-bomber)s and carrier airplanes, (twin engine) fast airframes and medium bombers and heavies just one class. Then, for each tech, there are subtechs for the individual types, such as (for fast airframes) heavy fighters, fast bombers and twin-engined torpedo strike. Each tech costs ~half what the vanilla full tiers do, so that the whole lot costs more or less the same (but the choices are slightly different around combinations). Research single engine fighters and you get nothing new, per se, but it opens up both fighter and fighter-bomber (and night fighter, when/if there are options to support radar effects for night flying plane models) models. I think it works pretty well.

If there were to be a design system similar to the MtG ship one for aircraft, you could do it more-or-less similarly. Main tiers would be engine models and the "subtechs" would be airframes. This reflects the way 'plane development went, with new, more powerful engines making less draggy, more speed-adapted airframes more worthwhile to develop, leading to heavier armament (because they realised that the time windows for firing would be shorter, so that more "punch" would be required). A slight complication might be radial vs inline engines, but you really would want to include both because the relative benefits and issues are significant and strategically interesting.

I think perhaps too, that advances in rockets, bombs and air-dropped torpedoes, could be modelled as distinct technologies, so that e.g. naval strike doesn't necessarily go up with the aircraft model, but by the weapon techs.

E.g. tac bomber 1, has the stats naval_strike_attack = 8
while tac bomber 2 has the stats naval_strike_attack = 12

so, instead of that being the case, then it would be "armour piercing bomb" tech, to give tac bombers +50% naval strike.
Yep, this is more-or-less how I have handled torpedo carrying naval strike aircraft, although I will note that development of doctrine and alternative/complimentary weaponry had a role. Unguided rockets as both flak suppressant and anti-(unarmoured)ship weapons are particularly interesting. Guided bombs and rockets are interesting, too, of course, but arguably a different category, not routinely used with torpedo strike units, as far as I know.

The "light twin" already exists in game, it is the "Heavy Fighter", see the wikipedia article on Blenheim, no-where it says it is a "Medium Bomber", it is classified as a "Light Bomber / Heavy Fighter": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Blenheim

So we can keep things simple: No need for even more aircraft types, and make the Heavy Fighter which is currently very niche into something more useful, by giving him a medium Naval attack capability and a small "Ground attack" stat.
Take a closer look at the Blenheim subtypes. The bomber versions were totally different in detail to the fighters, with different nose structures, different internal arrangements and such. The base airframe was the same, but you either made a bomber or a fighter; the same 'plane couldn't do both. It's the same deal with Ju-88s - they could be fitted to take torpedoes, schrage musik, etc., etc. - but you didn't have one 'plane with the "organ cannon" mounted AND bombs AND brackets for torpedoes.

Treating them as subtechs, similar to carrier planes in vanilla, works well, though - it allows cheap conversion of one subtype to another, but not wings that can do everything without conversion.

Which strat bombing stat values exactly do you propose for the 4 TACs and 3 STRs?
I actually have an exra "early" layer, so one added tier, and use the following:

Medium-X = 7
Medium-0 = 10
Medium-1 = 12
Medium-2 = 15
Medium-3 = 16

Fast-1 = 10
Fast-2 = 12
Fast-3 = 14

Str-0 = 24
Str-1 = 28
Str-2 = 32
Str-3 = 36

These fit the low end of historical models; it's worth noting that your first variant for each model in WM is "free", so these values will almost always be adjusted a bit by the initial variant, generally to be a bit higher. (The variant received varies by nation - nations that never created such a model get either a default "average variant" or some xp to design one - which is always a choice for the player, anyway).

If you want to see the full stat set let me know by pm and I'll link you the (somewhat convoluted) spreadsheet I use.
 
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