Historical Naming Methods?

[Jon Shafer]

Being one who likes to adhere to history, at least of the military sort, I try to name my divisions/corps/armies in somewhat of an organized manner. However, this is a rather difficult task. Do all divisions run down the number line? (i.e. 1st Pz Div, 2nd Inf Div, 3rd Mech Div, 4th Pz Div, etc.) How do you name new units if previous ones have been destroyed? Do army names follow the same rules? (1st Pz Army, 2nd Army, 3rd Shock Army, etc.)

Naming units is such a time-consuming and difficult task.

 

[unmerged(4990)]

It usually goes down the line (1-x) as you build them. So 1st Pz Div, 2nd Pz Div, etc.

Destroyed units typically aren't simply rebuilt and the number used again, the next number down is used. Then again, it's a rarity an entire division is ever destroyed outright.

Army names follow a similar rule, though I'm not sure about what happens if an entire army is destroyed. Well, besides a General losing his job

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Constantine XI
It usually goes down the line (1-x) as you build them. So 1st Pz Div, 2nd Pz Div, etc.

Destroyed units typically aren't simply rebuilt and the number used again, the next number down is used. Then again, it's a rarity an entire division is ever destroyed outright.

Army names follow a similar rule, though I'm not sure about what happens if an entire army is destroyed. Well, besides a General losing his job

So that would mean 1st Pz Division, 2nd Mech Division, 3rd Pz Division then?

So if the 1st Pz Division was destroyed in this case, then the next infantry division would be named 1st Inf Division, and the next panzer division to be made would be the 4th?

Why is it that you don't see panzer divisions with outrageously high number denotations (like infantry divs often have)? There are certainly cases when divisions get destroyed (6th army, NUMEROUS times for the Russians, whenever a division surrenders, etc.).

Armies follow the same pattern as well then (the (1st Pz Army, 2nd Army, 3rd Shock Army example I gave earlier)? Again, surrenders, entire armies being destroyed, and all that sort of thing weren't all TOO uncommon (especially for the USSR at the start of the war, and the Germans later on), so there must have been a system to deal with it... (I remember some referrences to a German 6th Army later on during 1945, even after it'd been destroyed at Stalingrad, so I'm assuming that armies follow the same pattern as divisions after being destroyed)

 

[bandkanon]

Ok I'm gonna take a leap on accuracy here. I'm using the War in Russia appendix showing all the German divisions in the war. I double checked some of them against a couple of Osprey Caimpagn Series books and all matched up as real divisions. So:

Its 1st panzer, 2nd panzer, 3rd Panzer...1st Infantry, 2nd Infantry, 3rd....

Although the list I have don't show the 3rd or 4th infantry and skips some other numbers and I don't know why.

Regarding Army and Corps names: I think those get recycled very often. Something to do with keeping the enemy guessing as to who they are really facing on the other side. So I would think every once in a while divisions are swapped back and forth between the front and rear. When they rejoin the front they are assigned to a new Corps. Pretty confusing to the other side if they aren't keeping close track of who they are facing.

 

[Aetius]

Ah but in Japan the Division numbers are sometimes different.
The 2nd Imperial Guard Division was in fact the 1st Imperial Guard Division from the start, until it was split/replaced with the new 1st Imperial Guard Division. Ships with numbers were also frequently rearranged the I-52 submarine became the I-152, when the new I-52 was built.

 

[bandkanon]

Originally posted by Aetius
Ah but in Japan the Division numbers are sometimes different.
The 2nd Imperial Guard Division was in fact the 1st Imperial Guard Division from the start, until it was split/replaced with the new 1st Imperial Guard Division. Ships with numbers were also frequently rearranged the I-52 submarine became the I-152, when the new I-52 was built.

Ummm Whatever I posted earlier only applied to Germany. The British had a complete different system I think. They named everything with a formal name: Yorkshire this, blah blah that I think. Umm so did the Italians.

 

[Jon Shafer]

I don't want to have to do that every time I build a new unit.

Anyone have any conclusive information on definitive # naming?

 

[Ape]

Originally posted by Trip
I don't want to have to do that every time I build a new unit.

Anyone have any conclusive information on definitive # naming?

There was no definite naming method..... the one I use is with lists of the historical divisions. Once I build a new division I just rename it after the next one on the list.
Why there are holes in lists of divisions? Many divisions in for instance the Wehrmacht were reconstitituted as other division types, example: the 3e Infanterie division was in October -40 reorganized into the 3e Motoriziert Infanterie division, was encircled and destroyed at Stalingrad. Later reformed in the Spring of -43, and promptly renamed to 3e Panzergrenadier division, fought in Italy and France, was then encirlced in the Ruhr pocket in -45 were it surrendered, never to be reorganized......
....and many divisions that were destroyed, for example those in Stalingrad were rebuilt, mostly with a nucleus of troops that had been wounded and evacuated...... and there was a new 6th Army after Stalingrad as well.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Ape
There was no definite naming method..... the one I use is with lists of the historical divisions. Once I build a new division I just rename it after the next one on the list.
Why there are holes in lists of divisions? Many divisions in for instance the Wehrmacht were reconstitituted as other division types, example: the 3e Infanterie division was in October -40 reorganized into the 3e Motoriziert Infanterie division, was encircled and destroyed at Stalingrad. Later reformed in the Spring of -43, and promptly renamed to 3e Panzergrenadier division, fought in Italy and France, was then encirlced in the Ruhr pocket in -45 were it surrendered, never to be reorganized......
....and many divisions that were destroyed, for example those in Stalingrad were rebuilt, mostly with a nucleus of troops that had been wounded and evacuated...... and there was a new 6th Army after Stalingrad as well.

Might you have a list?

I'm sure I could find it, but I'm not nearly so motivated to do such a thing.

 

[Ape]

Originally posted by Trip
Might you have a list?

I'm sure I could find it, but I'm not nearly so motivated to do such a thing.

Sorry mate, not on computer, I could photo copy it and mail it to you ......
....serioulsy I have thought for a long time to make a comprehensive comptuterized list of divisions, uses by the major particians in the war...... oh and trust me the Soviets have a HUUUUUGE amount of rifle divisions.