Historical Mode

[vector1]

I noted that there's a historical path option as shown for the AI to take.

Would it be possible to have some kind of historical player option as well for multiplayer? As fun as free-for-alls can be, sometimes it's better to have restrictions so that everyone can have a relatively fun game without say, having Allies+ SOV somehow forming a mega faction and crushing GER in 1939 for example.

To adopt some of the MP rules, typically we have historical factions, and historical event dates. For example, Japan will never be part of the Allies, always Axis. Other rules have roughly historical timelines up till Danzig to give a proper buildup for all players. Munich, Austria, China typically have rules for a fixed and semi historical date.

A bad example I saw is Japan being able to immediately go down the Marco Polo focus path, and DOW within the first 2-3 months of the game. This is extremely unfair to any potential Chinese players since they basically stand no chance whatsoever without buildup, and if Japan is able to quickly take China, they benefit much longer from the resources/industry captured.

Again, I'm 100% sure will be moddable but it would be nice if it could be a optional choice at the start of the game to simplify MP rules. If not we'll just have to find the most exploitative strategies and try to rule them out to balance the game.

TLR, Have some toggled historical date restrictions on national focuses before going to war with a similar option to the historical AI chosen at the start of the game. It doesn't have to be the exact date, but similar year/month would be sufficient for major forks in history.

 

[xtfoster]

From what I understand, Historical Mode only determines what National Foci the AI takes. I don't think it applies to event decisions, alliance choices, etc.

 

[griffor]

i think the best course of action is to play with people who agree on a set of rules to promote a fun balanced game

 

[vector1]

I understand that. It's just that almost all the larger HOI3 groups have rules to give a more consistent run-up to war rather than letting the game derail before 1939 for example. It's not a huge thing, but it'll just be nice if a similar option was implemented like the historical AI focus. If not, we're back to houserules and separate MP mods.

 

[Number 7]

i think these are the kind of agreements you have to make with players pre game right now. Maybe the devs implement something, but it couldnt be too complex in the worst case to just mod in something that doesnt let people go off the rails pre 1939. just adding some extra gates to national focus, for example not being able to marco bridge incident until 1937

 

[wright1331]

I noted that there's a historical path option as shown for the AI to take.

Would it be possible to have some kind of historical player option as well for multiplayer? As fun as free-for-alls can be, sometimes it's better to have restrictions so that everyone can have a relatively fun game without say, having Allies+ SOV somehow forming a mega faction and crushing GER in 1939 for example.

To adopt some of the MP rules, typically we have historical factions, and historical event dates. For example, Japan will never be part of the Allies, always Axis. Other rules have roughly historical timelines up till Danzig to give a proper buildup for all players. Munich, Austria, China typically have rules for a fixed and semi historical date.

A bad example I saw is Japan being able to immediately go down the Marco Polo focus path, and DOW within the first 2-3 months of the game. This is extremely unfair to any potential Chinese players since they basically stand no chance whatsoever without buildup, and if Japan is able to quickly take China, they benefit much longer from the resources/industry captured.

Again, I'm 100% sure will be moddable but it would be nice if it could be a optional choice at the start of the game to simplify MP rules. If not we'll just have to find the most exploitative strategies and try to rule them out to balance the game.

TLR, Have some toggled historical date restrictions on national focuses before going to war with a similar option to the historical AI chosen at the start of the game. It doesn't have to be the exact date, but similar year/month would be sufficient for major forks in history.

This is what House rules are for.
Taking time to limit the players options is the opposite approach I hope Paradox is taking

 

[Sir Garnet]

Given that seamless multiplayer with a lot of participants and concluding a game in a reasonable time frame is a big attraction, having the histoiical NF toggle seems a reasonable and useful thing that I would use.

 

[vector1]

This is what House rules are for.
Taking time to limit the players options is the opposite approach I hope Paradox is taking

That's what we have the world threat counter for, specifically to limit Allied aggression pre-war if Axis doesn't be too aggressive. Paradox has always included some kind of mechanism to give a semi realistic approach to the war rather than an immediate free-for-all (not that it wouldn't be fun, just a different sandbox experience). Neutrality/threat was this mechanism even if it didn't work too well in HOI3 MP as it could be easily gamed.

Limiting player options is good as long it's done semi-historically and realistically. After all, I doubt anyone would say that not allowing the USA to DOW GER on 1 Jan 1936 could be "too limiting". All I'm proposing is a more historical toggle similar to how the the option is setup for the AI. I'd be willing to wager I could mod in the relevant flags/triggers easily for all the major events anyway so it'll be nice if it's included in the base game as a "historical road to war" option which makes our modding much easier where we can rely on that specific trigger/flag.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Would be good of Paradox to ease the path here, as modding beyond retyping a number in a settings file can be impenetrable for some of us.

 

[Loke]

A quality game does not need many house rules...

 

[Sir Garnet]

A quality game does not need many house rules...

The quality of the game is expected to be high.

The problem is the quality of the source material-the "World War 2" story.

WW2, taken as a novel proposed for adaptation to the screen, would be rejected for major rewrite on numerous issues. It is a morally simplistic and grossly overplotted melodrama, rife with implausible melodramatic coincidences, twists of fate, outrageously evil villainy, absurd heroism, incomprehensible idiocy, and heavy reliance on deus ex machina, including the final topper of a Buck Rogers superbomb that ends the war (hero doesn't need to invade Japan, how lucky) and conveniently sets things up for a sequel. Kids can't keep track of all that's going on and adults who can won't find it a believable or compelling story with all the artificial plot tricks. Which doesn't mean it won't be a summer blockbuster.

But trying to turn that kind of wild tale into a reasonable strategy game suitable for play by groups of people who already know the spoilers is a formidable challenge,

 

[griffor]

The quality of the game is expected to be high.

The problem is the quality of the source material-the "World War 2" story.

WW2, taken as a novel proposed for adaptation to the screen, would be rejected for major rewrite on numerous issues. It is a morally simplistic and grossly overplotted melodrama, rife with implausible melodramatic coincidences, twists of fate, outrageously evil villainy, absurd heroism, incomprehensible idiocy, and heavy reliance on deus ex machina, including the final topper of a Buck Rogers superbomb that ends the war (hero doesn't need to invade Japan, how lucky) and conveniently sets things up for a sequel. Kids can't keep track of all that's going on and adults who can won't find it a believable or compelling story with all the artificial plot tricks. Which doesn't mean it won't be a summer blockbuster.

But trying to turn that kind of wild tale into a reasonable strategy game suitable for play by groups of people who already know the spoilers is a formidable challenge,

i get that i think i find it best to play with people who are in the end more concerned with having a fun balenced game over a try hard how many glitches can i achieve style one. And if all else fails you can set up a set of rules that ussr can't declare war on axis before 42-43, limit america to before being attacked or uk/ussr falling nothing says that historical lend lease couldn't be used of course.

 

[Sir Garnet]

The problem is again that WW2 is too complex to discuss and write up all contingencies, and having homework to read to play a game is a chore rather than a delight for many.
Even the procedural rules for signing in/voice chat/pausing/saving etc take a page. Reasonable and concise rules for HOI3 can run longer.

I think Paradox means HOI4 to be attractive to the vast casual player market, which includes not just the vast TLDR population but others who just want to drive their country and have someone else worry about the traffic signals and logistics. Having to stop and go back to a save or have recriminations when a problem isn't discovered quickly is very off-putting to players and prospects. There are a lot of potential issues. It would be interesting to hear what rules, if any, the insiders use.

The game, however, will resolve all contingencies for all countries. The NFs already address various paths. Having a few settings addresses those simply and makes a big positive impact on MP without burdening players with homework or run the risk of someone screwing up under the rules.

Being able to toggle on/off HIstorical NFs for a human player as well as AI players would go a long way just by itself to shape events for players who don't want to jump into the outbreak of war in 1939 but would as a group prefer a more familiar landscape. I assume some NFs railroad or bar certain choices, but for the most part they change modifiers and trigger events that push things in a historical direction but still leave the player free to change or bend history.

Maybe it's not perfect, but it is a clear, understandable and attractive concept that doesn't burden the player (i.e., is fun rather than work) and a considerable value for both old Paradox players and those for whom this will be their first big strategy/wargame-satisfactory to both.

 

[Axe99]

The NF's have prerequisites, so a relatively simple mod could be to just make the NF's a single 'ladder' rather than a tree, where the ladder is just the historical NF's - play with that mod, and you've no choice but to go historical (or not do NFs, I guess, but I can't imagine that being a winning strategy). Just thinking out loud.

@Sir Garnet - loved your description of the plot of WW2!

 

[Sir Garnet]

@Sir Garnet - loved your description of the plot of WW2!

Thanks - it's hard to make it pithy. You can make a round robin game of coming up with implausible but true WW2 plot points.

I do respect the challenge of making a game where historical knowledge is such a powerful spoiler. The NFs help moderate the effects.