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dervishefendy

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Unfortunately Seljuk sultan’s religious identity unfortunately wrong in game. Nearly all historical document shown that the Seljuks were Hanafi hence Maturidi. In Sadr’eddin Huseyni’s Seljuknameh, he descibed Islamisation of Seljuks with words ”they became Hanafi”. According to Iranian historian Zebihullah Safa “All the sultans who came to power after that have always been members of the Hanafi sect.” According to famous vizier of Great Seljuks Nizam’ul-Mulk’s Siyasatnameh, Alp Arslan was a devout Hanafi. He was so much loving his madhab (Hanafiyya) and was always saying “If only my vizier dont being Shaafi but be Hanafi.” We see other examples about this. For example according to es-Subki (who wrote famous Shaafi Biography), Sultan Tughrul was a Hanafi. We see another record about Malikshah, son of Alp Arslan. Accordind to Ahmed bin Mahmud’s Seljuknameh, he was the first sultan to lead the eid prayer according to Hanafi fiqh in Baghdad. Some late examples also we have. Muhammed Tapar son of Melikshah was also devout Hanafi according to Bundari’s Zubdat an-Nusra. According to Encyclopedia Iranica :”It was the establishment of a strong Hanafite-Murjiʿite presence in the east, especially among the rapidly increasing mawāli population, that facilitated the eventual spread of Hanafism to the Turks. It was natural that the Samanids, given their power base in the east and their Persian background, should embrace both Hanafism and Murjiʿism. Later, the Saljuqs also became champions of the Hanafite maḏhab, along with Mātu-ridi theology, which had formed in Hanafite circles in Transoxiana under the influence of later permutations of Murjiʿism. Maturidism, though close to Ashʿarism on a number of points, differed with regard to the question of the divine attributes (ṣefāt), freewill, and the relationship between faith and works (cf. Madelung, “Māturīdiyya,” EI2VI, pp. 847-48). The westward expansion of the Saljuqs in the 5th/11th and 6th/12th centuries enabled Hanafism of the eastern variety, with its Persian and Turkish character, to become firmly established in the west, especially in the cities of western Persia, Iraq, Syria and Anatolia.” Hanafi madhab is almost exculusively belong to “Maturidi” faith and unfortunately in game, Seljuks are shown as Ashari. I could not find any sources about “Ashari Seljuks”. I really don’t understand why developers made this and which historical source they used. Even with simple investigation, this can be find. I know for some people it isn’t that important but for historical accuracy I really hope this issue will be fixed.
 
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dervishefendy

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So your suggestion is to make Seljuks Maturdi instead of Ash'ari?
Yeah, exactly. I mean for Seljuk dynasty. Not for provinces or other people in court. Because majority of Seljuk courtiers -espacially Iranian and Arab ones- were Ashari. But for commanders or Turkic rulers in Seljuk realm, while i have not enough information i think still Hanafi faith was majority. Other Sunni branches are really scarce in sources that giving information about Seljuks. But some chronicles mention that Seljuk realm was homed mostly Ashari and Maturidi faith.
 
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klopkr

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I wonder if ash'ari was given to them because of their situation with the abbasid caliph. I agree with your suggestion but wonder what gameplay effects this might induce.

Might be worth switching the faiths and running observer mode just to check the kinds of interactions that creates.
 
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InsidiousMage

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I agree with your suggestion but wonder what gameplay effects this might induce.
A bunch of bad ones. The game currently doesn't, or can't, model a ruler ruling over a land with a different faith and culture so the Seljuks would be dealing with constant revolts and rebellions as soon as factions can start and they would explode into a thousand pieces.
 

dervishefendy

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A bunch of bad ones. The game currently doesn't, or can't, model a ruler ruling over a land with a different faith and culture so the Seljuks would be dealing with constant revolts and rebellions as soon as factions can start and they would explode into a thousand pieces.
Yeah, i agree with that. I write several times before game relased why seperating Islam this way will be wrong. In reality, Maturidi and Ashari faith lived together in history without any real problem. Their stuation were not like Orthodoxy and Chatolisism in Christian world. In Seljuk Empire, Hanafi/Maturidi Sultans were build Shaafi/Ashari Madrasahs. Most well-known examples were Nizamiyyah Madrasahs. They were thought Shaafi fiqh, and students and teachers were must be Ashari/Shaafi. But they funded by Seljuk Sultans like Alp Arslan and Malikshah. In Nizamu'l-Mulk's Siyasatnameh we also see how he appreciate Seljuk sultans effort to provide an order in which the Maturidis and the Asharis live in harmony.

I know game balance is important but why do we have to sacrifice obvious historical facts for this? It could be possible for the devs to change view of Maturidis and Asharis to each other and remove negative opinion between them. This would be done either with fixing Sunni doctrine or character trait. It will not only allow reflect historical reality for Seljuks but also give better reflect the periodic situation of the Sunni world.
 
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Viridianus

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This would be done either with fixing Sunni doctrine or character trait. It will not only allow reflect historical reality for Seljuks but also give better reflect the periodic situation of the Sunni world.
Indeed. It doesn't quite make sense that different Gnosticists view each other as Righteous but different Sunni are suddenly Astray.
 
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