Historical Improvement Project

[rook749]

Guy's,

I've gotten my game as the UK to June of 1943 and so far it been a blast. I have knocked Italy out of the war and I am about to land in France. So Far the AI had put a real fight as the Germans and even as Italy. I can't advance at all in Italy (about 1/2 up the boot).

I have yet to see any US units land in either Italy to support me but the east coast is very well defended. All the US has done is land in England and use my supplies so far. But I think this is more of a DD issue than a HIP one.

The adjustments to the naval leaders worked really well, the air needs some more tweaking but it seems I was incorrect and the land leader’s ratio is incorrect. The air needs a few more air marshals but other than that is ok. The land ratio (seems to be true across the board) looks like one FM for every 50 divisions, while this sounds good at first it means that with only 112 total divisions I get two FM’s both of which are tied down with useless leaders. Currently, I have 2 FM, 9 Generals, 45 Lt. Generals and 150 + Major Generals. I think we need to adjust the value so we get around 4 – 5 FM or one FM for every 25 divisions.

Rook

 

[unmerged(12544)]

land_field_marshal = 0.02
land_general = 0.031
land_lt_general = 0.41
sea_grand_admiral = 0.03
sea_admiral = 0.061
sea_vice_admiral = 0.401
air_marshal = 0.03
air_general = 0.091
air_lt_General = 0.11

This is, what we have for ENG. You are suggesting to bring land_field_marshal to 0.04 and land_general to 0.16-0.20?

 

[Golwar]

I think that the 50 Divs - 1 FM ratio is good enough. And its quite realistic that some people are promoted while better ones have to stay behind
Nevertheless it could be interesting if you could choose to force some officers into retirement per year. But I guess thats not realizable with HoI2 ...

 

[rook749]

land_field_marshal = 0.02
land_general = 0.031
land_lt_general = 0.41
air_marshal = 0.03
air_general = 0.091
air_lt_General = 0.11

This is, what we have for ENG. You are suggesting to bring land_field_marshal to 0.04 and land_general to 0.16-0.20?

No, I don't think we have to do that high, if we increase the land_field_marchal to .035 and the land_general to .045 I think that should do it. The the Air_Marshal I would bump from .03 to .04, the air_general from .091 to .1 and the air_Lt_general from .11 to .15

That should give the play the ability to mass larger forces to attack with.

Rook

 

[unmerged(12544)]

Fine, sounds great, will be in the next version.

I think that the 50 Divs - 1 FM ratio is good enough.

No, this is not enough, I would say at least twice that. Let's test rook's numbers.

 

[rook749]

I think that the 50 Divs - 1 FM ratio is good enough. And its quite realistic that some people are promoted while better ones have to stay behind
Nevertheless it could be interesting if you could choose to force some officers into retirement per year. But I guess thats not realizable with HoI2 ...

I think the 1 FM to 50 does would work for some nations (GE and the USSR possibly) that have around 300+ divisions but playing as the US or UK (there might be more but I have seen this issue with both nations now) if you build the historic army for either nation you only get 1 FM and six generals (90 divs) for the US and 2 FM and nine generals (~130 Divs) for the Uk simply does not allow me to attack larger formations of troops in several areas at once, which is critical to break a strong defensive position or advance on a large front.

Rook

 

[rook749]

No, this is not enough, I would say at least twice that. Let's test rook's numbers.

Panther,

Are you thinking about changing this for just the UK and the US or across the board?

Rook

 

[unmerged(12544)]

Let's start with the UK, when it is working fine, we can also change other countries.

v0.59 is out

 

[rook749]

Nevertheless it could be interesting if you could choose to force some officers into retirement per year. But I guess thats not realizable with HoI2 ...

I agree, as I've been playing each nation I've posting leaders that retired or died of natural causes and event text to remove the leader from the game. Panther has then been adding events to remove them from the game.

If there are any leaders you know that should retire just let Panther know.

Rook

 

[Golwar]

I agree, as I've been playing each nation I've posting leaders that retired or died of natural causes and event text to remove the leader from the game. Panther has then been adding events to remove them from the game.

If there are any leaders you know that should retire just let Panther know.

Rook

My suggestion didn't imply any historic reasons for retiring officers, it was more a idea that it would simply make sense if the players could chose to "fire" some unwelcome officers.

For example you have 300 divisions, had 4 old FM and gained 2 new ones by autopromotion. Who says that officers have to die before they get replaced ?
In real life leaders also get dumped when they loose support by government etc.
So my idea would be that the player should have the chance to force some officers into retirement in every year. Maybe a fixed amont or a certain percentage of each rank ( FM / Generals ) per year. But I don't see any chance to realize this with HoI2 yet. The only way is to kick them by handmade events ( which you would have to edit while you play, as you can't know who'll be autopromoted ). A simple solution would be that Paradox offered some new event options that differs ranks, but when did they fulfill wishes the last time ?

PS
I guess there isn't any gfx pack out there that supports all HIP models ? I want to start a HIP AAR soon and many of my readers cried when i used counters + scytths models last time. Don't wanna hear them grumbling when even the model pics show counters next time

 

[jowe01]

Let's start with the UK, when it is working fine, we can also change other countries.

v0.59 is out

I have just loaded HIP for the first time, basically only because it is the first mod compatible with DD 1.2. However, I must say it seems to have been a mistake to not play it earlier. It really looks very, very interesting.

I am still trying to understand the mechanics of the mod. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, but at least in the change log, I do not find an answer. So, what is the effect of all those indutrial techs. When I click them it always says "no immediate effect". Is there any benefit in researching them?

 

[Golwar]

Well you surely need them as you can't get Assembly Line Techs without them. And you need those techs for modern versions of nearly any weapons class
It seems that there is no direct benefit, but that goes along with the refusal of boni for ministers etc.

 

[jowe01]

Well you surely need them as you can't get Assembly Line Techs without them. And you need those techs for modern versions of nearly any weapons class
It seems that there is no direct benefit, but that goes along with the refusal of boni for ministers etc.

Thanks for the info so far.

Can anybody explain the fundamentals of the HIP resource/IC system to me? E.g. how are IC calculated (effective IC are just a fraction of my base and i do not know how to increase them, since Golwar seems to confirm that the indutrial techs do not help)? Are they modified just by events? So is it entirely useless if I coquer additional ICs? What is meant when Panther say somewhere "resources are cheap, the miniting factor is availability"? Etc.....

 

[rook749]

I have just loaded HIP for the first time, basically only because it is the first mod compatible with DD 1.2. However, I must say it seems to have been a mistake to not play it earlier. It really looks very, very interesting.

I am still trying to understand the mechanics of the mod. Please excuse me if this has been asked before, but at least in the change log, I do not find an answer. So, what is the effect of all those indutrial techs. When I click them it always says "no immediate effect". Is there any benefit in researching them?

If you look at the armor, aircraft, infantry, etc tech sceeens you will see that you need to get the assembly line tech for each to to research units past 1940.

They don't add to your IC but allow for the later war units.

Rook

 

[rook749]

Thanks for the info so far.

Can anybody explain the fundamentals of the HIP resource/IC system to me? E.g. how are IC calculated (effective IC are just a fraction of my base and i do not know how to increase them, since Golwar seems to confirm that the indutrial techs do not help)? Are they modified just by events? So is it entirely useless if I coquer additional ICs? What is meant when Panther say somewhere "resources are cheap, the miniting factor is availability"? Etc.....

I'm not exactly sure how IC is caculated, but you are limted only to the % of GDP that the nation you are playing devoted to the military.

Each year on January 1st this may be adjusted up or down. When you go to war or peace this value is also adjusted.

Each year on July 15th the IC's of every nations will expand/shrink depeding on the growth/decline of that nations GDP in the given year. Also on July 15th the nation will receive its polulation growth for that year.


Taking IC from the enemy will add this IC to youe nation as per normal.

Rook

 

[unmerged(12544)]

Very well explained by rook. IC in HIP stands for GDP and the industrial_modifier (how much of your IC can be used) follows historic figures for major countries. It is still worth conquering more foreign IC, especially if you have a prince of terror minister.

 

[jowe01]

Ok, I have further progressed in my first HIP game. Still I like it rather well. However, one thing that bothers me is the resource system. I guess I have now understood what "resources are very cheap, the limiting factor is availability) means. I have just traded 5000 coal against 450 money. In vanilla, 450 money would be a considerable amount. In HIP, its worth practically nothing. This means, that there is no way I can trade a resource surplus fo any noteworthy amount of money (have not checked whether this is true for oil and supplies, too). That does not seem right, resources were an important stake in the mid of last century. This is not reflected in HIP because with some tiny amount of excess consumer good production you can generate thousands of $ which in turn buy you all the resources you ever need. That availability is a limiting factor I still have to see in my game.

What do others think, is this really an element of HIP which you appreciate (I admit, while I very much like the mod as a whole, I hate this aspect)?

EDIT: just checked it for oil trades: again, for very few money (compared to money income which is extremely inflated in HOI) I can buy tremendous amounts of oil. This means that when playing as Germany, I can probably eliminate the historical oil crunch just by very cheaply building a stockpile of oil which is sufficient for the whole war.
Contrary to this, supplies seem to be priced more or less in line with vanilla money prices (again, when comparing to money income from overproducing consumer goods)

 

[Barkdreg]

I think the amount of money you get is too small in the HIP.
For countries like Japan diplomacy is extremely expensive and you shouldn't even think about intelligence actions.

 

[jowe01]

I think the amount of money you get is too small in the HIP.
For countries like Japan diplomacy is extremely expensive and you shouldn't even think about intelligence actions.

That might well be, I have not yet considered this. However, my point rather is that if you have some money (by slightly overproducing consumer goods) all other resources except supplies become irrelevant because they are so cheap compared to money income.

 

[unmerged(12544)]

That does not seem right, resources were an important stake in the mid of last century. This is not reflected in HIP because with some tiny amount of excess consumer good production you can generate thousands of $ which in turn buy you all the resources you ever need. That availability is a limiting factor I still have to see in my game.

Take a Pz III, the DD resources needed build it, make up 1.25% of total cost of the tank, that's nothing. Or take steel, it costs 10 to 20 times more than iron ore, here again iron ore cost relative to steel cost is rather small. HIP won't overstate the value of resources, just because Paradox does that. You won't get rich by selling resources in HIP. Oil did cost, if I remember this correct, about 1 to 1.5 USD per barrel and the price was quite stable until it started to rise after 1946.

I think the amount of money you get is too small in the HIP.
For countries like Japan diplomacy is extremely expensive and you shouldn't even think about intelligence actions.

This might be reviewed. Spy costs should be lowered relative to diplomatic cost as a first idea.