Historical Immersion? The geography in Hungary is all wrong and immersion-breaking!

[Pressburger]

oh boy be careful what you say no matter how right you are. This might end up in a never ending discussion. I already had this discussion. And it was not worth the time so i just did it in my mod x)

About the culture name: yes... and no.
You have to draw a line somewhere with new slavic cultures. Its true that slovaks do not really fit under the regional "moravia" name but they were pretty much the very same people.
This is the problem with the entire slavic sphere as all the identities are very regional, from outside (like russian as norse rowers) or extremely universal (like polish which translates into farmers).
you cant create new cultures for every cluster of 5 provinces. Especially not where the people are FAR closer to each other as other cultures in HIP.
The best solution (but still kind of bad) would be that moravia melts into czech and the remaning moravians in slovakia change their name to slovieni but this is not possible

But the far best solution would be some mechanic to actually have a shitload of slavic cultures which dont have negative penalities for each other. Lets get real here: religious penalities are the only ones that make sense for slavs.

I actually liked how vanilla CK2 addressed this: A "Slovieni" culture in Moravia and Slovakia at the beginning, later being gradually replaced by Czech in Moravia, making it eventually stay only in Slovakia.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

I actually liked how vanilla CK2 addressed this: A "Slovieni" culture in Moravia and Slovakia at the beginning, later being gradually replaced by Czech in Moravia, making it eventually stay only in Slovakia.

The proper conjugation would be "slovensky" which translates into "slavic" and therefore not a good choice because it has zero reference to those specific proto slovak slavs.
It doesnt matter what you do everything is wrong. You can never be right in this region. but a division in 867 definitely makes no sense. It has to be moravian in 867.

Once you go "slavic" there is no going back. You will end up with 20 cultures which translate into "Slavic" with slightly different spellings lmao

and others would ask "why can they be generic slavic and we have to be "russian" or "polish" or "horvatian"" x)

 

[DorlasAnther]

You have to draw a line somewhere with new slavic cultures. Its true that slovaks do not really fit under the regional "moravia" name but they were pretty much the very same people.

After 906, development of Moravia and western Slovakia was entirely separate. It´s honestly a travesty that mod which is called Historical Immersion Project does something that not even normal CK2 or any other game that I know of does, and that is combining Slavic populations of Slovakia and Moravia into one people over a century after fall of Great Moravia.

If HIP can have things like Dalmatians, Albanians (forgot how they are called in the mod), Goths or all sorts of cultures in Caucasus and British Isles, I don´t see why Slovaks would be too far-fetched. Great Moravia overall is one of those situations where CK2 has managed to make itself more historically accurate while HIP stubbornly stays the same as it has always been and keeps two groups of Slavs that definitely weren´t the same people during High and Late Middle Ages as one culture because lands where they lived were part of the same political entity in 9th century.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

After 906, development of Moravia and western Slovakia was entirely separate

How is culture and economy the same thing?
How could there one millennium later a state called "Czechoslovakia" form after centuries of diplomatic and economic division?
Perhaps beacuse of unusually strong cultural ties?
Even today some would say you speak one language with a few dialects (except eastern slovak)

Maybe some are too proud of slovakia to accept that its culture has its roots outside of the modern slovak state - moravia

After the fall of Great Moravia there are exactly FOUR legitly "slovak" provinces and you want to make a culture for that which translates into "slavic"?

And dont even compare this to Dalmatians and arberians.
This is an entire different level of 'has to be there'

 

[JonStryker]

Because you end up with the same misleading:
"The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'."


Just a quick example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#Modern_era

Also you should look up the most common surname in slovakia (and nearby nations)
nice CoA btw

Afaik the surname "Horváth" is so common in those areas due to the settlers from Croatia that the Austrian emperors brought in after wide spread devastation caused by the Ottoman wars in Europe. 100000+ Croatians were settled in North-Western Hungary / Eastern Austria = present day Austria, Slovakia and Hungary.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

100000+ Croatians were settled

source please

 

[DorlasAnther]

How is culture and economy the same thing?

Since when were Moravians and Slovaks culturally one people? You should really provide some sources to your claims.

How could there one millennium later a state called "Czechoslovakia" form after centuries of diplomatic and economic division?
Perhaps beacuse of unusually strong cultural ties?
Even today some would say you speak one language with a few dialects (except eastern slovak)

You clearly show lack of understanding of modern Czech and Slovak history, so for your sake, you should study it more because there were many practical reasons that lead to switch of mentality at the start of 20th century which resulted into Czechs and Slovaks going for creation of common country rather than Czechs making their own state and Slovaks continuing to strive for autonomy in Hungary.
On top of that, you clearly don ´t know much about Czech and Slovak languages because they have quite different grammar and many words that are completely different. In fact, many young Czechs struggle to understand Slovak due to split of Czechoslovakia that lead to reduced presence of Slovak in Czech media and everyday life.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

Since when were Moravians and Slovaks culturally one people?

Great Moravia. You know the state which had its core in modern day moravia and slovakia.

I am aware of ethnical consolidation inside modern nations. Entire czechia is going to speak prague czech soon while entire slovakia will speak bratislava slovak.
A nice example for this is young slovenia which has a fuckton of different dialects on village basis. And those will soon all speak the Ljubljana dialect. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Slovenian_Dialects.svg
They realized that carinthia is not really inside their state so yet another modern slavic nation which inhabitants decided to just stick with "Slavic" as their identity.
Perhaps we need another slovenian-slavic culture in HIP as carinthia clearly itsnt THAT big right?

So which provinces should be Karantanski and which Slovenski? *grabs popcorn*

 

[DorlasAnther]

I am aware of ethnical consolidation inside modern nations. Entire czechia is going to speak prague czech soon while entire slovakia will speak bratislava slovak.

Objectively wrong given that literary Slovak is based on Central Slovak dialect and is being taught in schools.

They realized that carinthia is not really inside their state so yet another modern slavic nation which inhabitants decided to just stick with "Slavic" as their identity.
Perhaps we need another slovenian-slavic culture in HIP as carinthia clearly itsnt THAT big right?

So which provinces should be Karantanski and which Slovenski? *grabs popcorn*

You got a tiny mistake there, mate.
Carinthia is not owned by another Slavic ethnic group, unlike Moravia. Example of Moravians/Slovaks would be more comparable to hypothetical situation where Slovenians are part of Croatian culture.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Great Moravia. You know the state which had its core in modern day moravia and slovakia.

And double post since I did a missclick: Great Moravia existed for 70 years. Main portion of CK2 is taking place over 100 years after it fell.
Once again, your knowledge is clearly lacking and you are doing the same mistake done some time ago by whoever created Moravian culture and that is assuming that since land was controlled by a political entity long ago, its people should identify themselves with that entity.
Simply put, that´s now how it works.

EDIT: Also, you´ve got quite an interresting fallacy going on there. You say that entirely different development of Moravia and Slovakia after 906 is not a reason to differentiate between two peoples because political/economig development =/= cultural, yet you seem to be basing your entire premise of Slovaks = Moravians on existence of political entity created through conquest of Nitra by Moravia.
Also, a study (no idea whether it´s on the internet though) by Slovak archaeologist Tomáš König comparing finds from Slovakia and Moravia suggests that there were differences between regions of Moravia and Nitra, as Nitra seemed to have been poorer, less Christianized and less urbanized compared to Moravia during the time they were this supposed "core" of Great Moravia.

 

[JonStryker]

Afaik the surname "Horváth" is so common in those areas due to the settlers from Croatia that the Austrian emperors brought in after wide spread devastation caused by the Ottoman wars in Europe. 100000+ Croatians were settled in North-Western Hungary / Eastern Austria = present day Austria, Slovakia and Hungary.

The English Wikipedia gives a rough overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats
The German Wiki is more thorough: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenlandkroaten
There is a Croatian language source here: https://www.enciklopedija.hr/natuknica.aspx?id=22976

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

And double post since I did a missclick: Great Moravia existed for 70 years. Main portion of CK2 is taking place over 100 years after it fell.
Once again, your knowledge is clearly lacking and you are doing the same mistake done some time ago by whoever created Moravian culture and that is assuming that since land was controlled by a political entity long ago, its people should identify themselves with that entity.
Simply put, that´s now how it works.

EDIT: Also, you´ve got quite an interresting fallacy going on there. You say that entirely different development of Moravia and Slovakia after 906 is not a reason to differentiate between two peoples because political/economig development =/= cultural, yet you seem to be basing your entire premise of Slovaks = Moravians on existence of political entity created through conquest of Nitra by Moravia.
Also, a study (no idea whether it´s on the internet though) by Slovak archaeologist Tomáš König comparing finds from Slovakia and Moravia suggests that there were differences between regions of Moravia and Nitra, as Nitra seemed to have been poorer, less Christianized and less urbanized compared to Moravia during the time they were this supposed "core" of Great Moravia.

im just against slavic cultures which translate into "slavic". I know that the inhabitants of every little slavic stripe of land know they are so different and special compared to their neighbours they couldnt tell apart if they visited.
So you are saying we need Czech, Moravian and Slovak (in whatever form of "Slavic") right?
Do we need another non-slovak, non-moravian culture for gyor, komarom and veszprem? or are they definitely and undoubtly slovak-slavic? Perhaps panonian slavic lmao

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

The English Wikipedia gives a rough overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenland_Croats
The German Wiki is more thorough: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgenlandkroaten
There is a Croatian language source here: https://www.enciklopedija.hr/natuknica.aspx?id=22976

Yeah i know this. I dont see the connection to the surname. The only croatians with the surname "Horvat" are the ones in the very north of the state from the capital to Zagorje region. The Burgenland Croats are from the krajina region which was then filled with orthodox vlahs and serbs. This is why there is a serbian "hole" inside the modern balkan-croatian ethnic blob.

quick comparison:
https://imgur.com/TayQ3JK

 

[DorlasAnther]

So you are saying we need Czech, Moravian and Slovak (in whatever form of "Slavic") right?
Do we need another non-slovak, non-moravian culture for gyor, komarom and veszprem? or are they definitely and undoubtly slovak-slavic? Perhaps panonian slavic lmao

Sort of a moot point given the fact that I am only against Moravian culture being used to describe Slovaks after 906, by which point Pannonia has already been conquered by Hungarians.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

Sort of a moot point given the fact that I am only against Moravian culture being used to describe Slovaks after 906, by which point Pannonia has already been conquered by Hungarians.

So we really need a "Slavic" culture for 4 provinces?

 

[DorlasAnther]

So we really need a "Slavic" culture for 4 provinces?

Given that we apparently need Gothic culture for 1 province, Dalmatian culture for 2 provinces, Albanian culture for 3 provinces and so on, I would say...
Yes.

Historical Immersion Project, not Necessary Gameplay Features Project.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

Given that we apparently need Gothic culture for 1 province, Dalmatian culture for 2 provinces, Albanian culture for 3 provinces and so on,

The difference with these is that they are more than significantly different from their neighbours and need to be in these places as there cant be anything else. Also Dalmatians have 4 provinces.

Should we split greek next?

 

[DorlasAnther]

The difference with these is that they are more than significantly different from their neighbours and need to be in these places as there cant be anything else. Also Dalmatians have 4 provinces.

In some starts, they only have 2.
And I don´t see how Slovaks aren´t different from their neighbours. Poles, Czechs and Moravians are all different from them, unless of course you just want to merge all West Slavs into one culture.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

In some starts, they only have 2.
And I don´t see how Slovaks aren´t different from their neighbours. Poles, Czechs and Moravians are all different from them, unless of course you just want to merge all West Slavs into one culture.

so should there be moravians in 936 or at all?

 

[DorlasAnther]

so should there be moravians in 936 or at all?

That would be up to people who are more familiar with history of Bohemia and lands it conquered in 10th century to determine, whether inhabitants of Moravia assumed Czech identity in these times or kept their own distinct identity.