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gg King Tryhard

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I've just downloaded HIP mod to immerse myself more into medieval world of Crusader Kings 2 and what do I see.

I play as Great Moravia and not only the eastern part of Great Moravia (later in game Northern Hungary or modern-day Slovakia) is all wrong when it comes to regions and their placement on the map, but names of settlements (and even the entire region) are already Hungarian - in a Western Slavic tribal kingdom before the arrival of Hungarians. It's not like this in the vanilla and neither are the regions all wrong.

I forgot to mention Rus ethnicity in the very eastern provinces of Moravia instead of "Moravian".

Why is this?
 
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I've just downloaded HIP mod to immerse myself more into medieval world of Crusader Kings 2 and what do I see.

I play as Great Moravia and not only the eastern part of Great Moravia (later in game Northern Hungary or modern-day Slovakia) is all wrong when it comes to regions and their placement on the map, but names of settlements (and even the entire region) are already Hungarian - in a Western Slavic tribal kingdom before the arrival of Hungarians. It's not like this in the vanilla and neither are the regions all wrong.

Why is this?
Oh no, you reminded me of Disconnected Újvár
 

TheDovahkiin97

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I've just downloaded HIP mod to immerse myself more into medieval world of Crusader Kings 2 and what do I see.

I play as Great Moravia and not only the eastern part of Great Moravia (later in game Northern Hungary or modern-day Slovakia) is all wrong when it comes to regions and their placement on the map, but names of settlements (and even the entire region) are already Hungarian - in a Western Slavic tribal kingdom before the arrival of Hungarians. It's not like this in the vanilla and neither are the regions all wrong.

I forgot to mention Rus ethnicity in the very eastern provinces of Moravia instead of "Moravian".

Why is this?
this is a new terrible decision to include the modern distribution of the rusyn/horvatian people into the russian culture.
I advise to use my "Better Slavs" and "More Cultural Names" Submods for this region. Before you go wild like "hurr durr slovakia so smol" please read the (long) introduction of my mod linked in my signature.
 

Delnar_Ersike

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I play as Great Moravia and not only the eastern part of Great Moravia (later in game Northern Hungary or modern-day Slovakia) is all wrong when it comes to regions and their placement on the map, but names of settlements (and even the entire region) are already Hungarian - in a Western Slavic tribal kingdom before the arrival of Hungarians. It's not like this in the vanilla and neither are the regions all wrong.

This is generally because of issues with lack of historical records for the period, something that plagues basically any date before around 1000, but especially if you're playing with the 867 start. Default settlement names in general are geared to be accurate for post-1000 starts, and so when the only historical period when a polity of a specific, different culture held an area is one from which we basically have no surviving, written historical records of what they called that place, we don't add an extra, special name for it for them.

Having done a massive amount of reading though and having seen a lot of what vanilla CK2 and this mod do, can do, and cannot do, I would definitely advise you not to play any date before the 11th century if you really want maximum historical immersion (as opposed to just historical plausibility).

I forgot to mention Rus ethnicity in the very eastern provinces of Moravia instead of "Moravian".

Why is this?

So, the Rusyns.

In vanilla, the people there are South Slavic Croatians, which is... extremely wrong, no matter how much Mr. Dovahkiin might call our change "a new terrible decision" and then hype up his mod that specializes in the same type of speculative history that vanilla CK2 features (just ones that agree with more, often poorly-cited Wikipedia pages than the vanilla CK2 versions). They were called "Belocroats" or "White Croats" by DAI, a moniker that they also sometimes used to call themselves later on (and what Paradox used to justify having them be Croatian), but by 867, they definitely were only related to South Slavic Croats at most by name only. The people there were Eastern Slavs for certain; though the split at the time between Eastern and Western Slavs was a lot murkier, they definitely do not belong in the same cultural family as Polish, Czech, and Moravian/Slovakian. They definitely were not Moravian nor Slovakian, either, as evidenced by how their language later developed as the people who lived there had all sorts of things happen to them (e.g. resettling some of them into Vojvodina in the 1700's which caused those Rusyns to evolve their language slightly differently than how the Rusyns who stayed evolved their language, them actually influencing Eastern Slovak accents while also still being fairly distinguishable from mainline Slovakian).

This is where we ran into a problem though: there is only one Eastern Slavic culture in SWMH (and also without it if you're playing in 867 or later), Rus' (localized as "Rusisku" in SWMH). This is both correct and incorrect at the same time. It's correct because all the people living in the territory marked as being Rus' culture considered themselves to be Rus' (heck, the modern day name "Rusyn" literally means "of the Rus'" or "people of the Rus'"). It's incorrect though because it implies that the people who considered themselves to be Rus' were culturally homogeneous, when in practice, there was actually a gradient of dialects that spanned the entire region. Sure, someone in the Carpathians, someone in Ryazan, and someone in Pskov may have all been "Rus'", but they all spoke fairly different versions of [East] Slavic, and there were often quite a few cultural differences between them as well (e.g. someone is Pskov was probably going to be fairly literate, whereas a Rusyn probably wouldn't). We recognize this as an issue, but don't really know how to address it, since if we do create splits within the large Rus' blob, we want those splits to be ones that represent prolonged political and/or cultural differences during this timeperiod (and there really weren't such major differences between the Rusyns and their counterparts on the other side of the Carpathians until after CK2's timeperiod). The best candidate so far has been Novgorodian, but we don't really know where to draw the boundaries for them yet, and we also don't know what other splits to make for this area.
 

Erilaz

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We recognize this as an issue, but don't really know how to address it, since if we do create splits within the large Rus' blob, we want those splits to be ones that represent prolonged political and/or cultural differences during this timeperiod (and there really weren't such major differences between the Rusyns and their counterparts on the other side of the Carpathians until after CK2's timeperiod). The best candidate so far has been Novgorodian, but we don't really know where to draw the boundaries for them yet, and we also don't know what other splits to make for this area.

Just as an aside (not trying to hijack the thread and make it all about Russian melting pots): From my point of view (which admittedly in this case is mostly based on linguistics, and a limited historical knowledge of the areas) it would make more sense to have something like a three-step melting pot:

1. Pre-Rus Eastern Slavs (excluding Christian name elements) - one big or alternatively split up in some way that I can't be the judge of currently...
2. Early Rus (including a minority of Norse name elements) - possibly only spreading to areas directly under Norse/Early Rus rule.
3. Christian Russians (Excluding Scandinavian and older name elements, but including Christian ones) - triggered when Christianity spreads, and melts from both of the above.

Pre-Rus (Slověnĭskŭ?) --> Early Rus (Rusĭ/Rusinŭ) --> Russian (Rusĭskŭ/Rusĭskyi).

EDIT: Rusĭ (pl.) and Rusinŭ (sg.) are nouns, so probably Early Rus as an adjective should be Rusĭskŭ while later Russians Ruskyi/Rusĭskyi (Рускъı/Рускыи/Русьскыи)

(The ĭ/ъ and ŭ/ь can also be dropped, at least in the later names).

Here's a really good source of information (with links to primary sources etc.):
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/early-rusĭ-names.302029/

Also, it was discussed in this thread.
 
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TheDovahkiin97

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They were called "Belocroats" or "White Croats" by DAI,
They were called many things but one thing is for sure: They were not called "White" before the balkan-croatian migration. They were called like this after to distinguish them from the balkanian ones. "White" just means "North". So if you cut that word, what are you left over with? Russians i guess...
heck, the modern day name "Rusyn" literally means "of the Rus'" or "people of the Rus'
im just gonna quote myself on this one:
Instead they refer to themselves by their smallest tribal subcultures in fear of persecution while the world accepted a label for them which was invented with the purpose to make them look closer to what we today call "Russian".
This label is called "Rusyn" and it is equally meaningless like the other exonyms to form bigger sub-russian identities like "(White, Black, Red Ruthenian", "Malorossijani" (Small-Russians), "Bilorussovi" (White-Russians), "Velikorossijani" (Great-Russians) etc.
Due to the ending of heavy persecution they slowly start to identify as "Horvati" again.
and i have no more breath or time to argue against "he only uses wikipedia" again (which is wrong)
 

gg King Tryhard

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Having done a massive amount of reading though and having seen a lot of what vanilla CK2 and this mod do, can do, and cannot do, I would definitely advise you not to play any date before the 11th century if you really want maximum historical immersion (as opposed to just historical plausibility).

I appreciate the effort, I truly do, but I cannot play CK2 when the region placement is utterly wrong and immersion breaking. I'll try to reinstall without the SWMH and use the vanilla map.

So, the Rusyns.

I am all in for including all ethnicities in the game, if it is historical. I was surprised that they were as far as Spisz(Spiš) and Abauj(Abov), for as long as I am aware, they live only in the easternmost districts of Slovakia, south-western Ukraine, south-eastern Poland and north-western Romania.
 

gg King Tryhard

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They were called many things but one thing is for sure: They were not called "White" before the balkan-croatian migration. They were called like this after to distinguish them from the balkanian ones. "White" just means "North". So if you cut that word, what are you left over with? Russians i guess...

im just gonna quote myself on this one:

(Sorry, I can't quote quotes.)
I've never heard of Rusyns or anyone else identify them with word "Horvati" except in discussions with White Croats as their hypothetical ancestors. However, if 'Rusyn' is derogatory, why not call them with their commonly used and known Latin equivalent: Ruthenians?
 

TheDovahkiin97

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However, if 'Rusyn' is derogatory, why not call them with their commonly used and known Latin equivalent: Ruthenians?
Because you end up with the same misleading:
"The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region whose people originally called themselves the Rus'."

I've never heard of Rusyns or anyone else identify them with word "Horvati"
Just a quick example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#Modern_era

Also you should look up the most common surname in slovakia (and nearby nations)
nice CoA btw
 
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ShinsukeNakamura

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this is a new terrible decision to include the modern distribution of the rusyn/horvatian people into the russian culture.
I advise to use my "Better Slavs" and "More Cultural Names" Submods for this region. Before you go wild like "hurr durr slovakia so smol" please read the (long) introduction of my mod linked in my signature.
I played for sometime with your mod, as far as Balkans goes you did a great job, but almost everything north of the Danube is wrong. I don't argue that there were tribes called White Croats etc. but your assumption that they were Croatian is completely ahistorical, which is also the case for Sorbian. The main evidence is that you used Croatian/South Slavic names for White Croatians and for Sorbs, Croatian localisation for this area and on the top of that you used Croatian ortography, resulting in some wacky outcomes like turning Sandomierz into Sudomież. Also, Horvatski culture had become second largest (in terms of # of provinces) slavic culture, which can be seen here:
upload_2020-3-23_12-7-16.jpeg

It coincides with this map:
Velika_Bijela_Hrvatska_9_st.jpg

And this, which is a Ukrainian nationalist's depictation of Kievan Rus' and it encompases Білі хорвати (White Croats) in the south.
QTebTyD6-fd425Mb3jUy6bjphQ_DZtirYxZfa_JRVow.jpg
 

TheDovahkiin97

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I played for sometime with your mod, as far as Balkans goes you did a great job, but almost everything north of the Danube is wrong. I don't argue that there were tribes called White Croats etc. but your assumption that they were Croatian is completely ahistorical, which is also the case for Sorbian. The main evidence is that you used Croatian/South Slavic names for White Croatians and for Sorbs, Croatian localisation for this area and on the top of that you used Croatian ortography, resulting in some wacky outcomes like turning Sandomierz into Sudomież. Also, Horvatski culture had become second largest (in terms of # of provinces) slavic culture, which can be seen here:

It coincides with this map:
Velika_Bijela_Hrvatska_9_st.jpg

And this, which is a Ukrainian nationalist's depictation of Kievan Rus' and it encompases Білі хорвати (White Croats) in the south.
QTebTyD6-fd425Mb3jUy6bjphQ_DZtirYxZfa_JRVow.jpg
yes i am aware of the localisation/names "problem". i just copied croatian and serbian localisations for the horvatian and sorbian cultures because i had no time to rework everything. Also i am not copying these maps and i will again quote myself:
The most famous enclave is mythical "White Croatia" which symbolizes the old Homeland of modern croatians as a much smaller continuum of the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" in which the "White Croats" continued to exist.
Historians struggle to determine its exact location because they falsely equate it with the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" and try to draw a circle around all/most "Horvatian" enclaves and end up with ridiculous state borders from Bohemia over Pannonia down to the Black Sea.
Therefore "White Croatia" is just a mythical attempt to determine one single entity and location from which all modern croatians descended.
 

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yes i am aware of the localisation/names "problem". i just copied croatian and serbian localisations for the horvatian and sorbian cultures because i had no time to rework everything. Also i am not copying these maps and i will again quote myself:
The most famous enclave is mythical "White Croatia" which symbolizes the old Homeland of modern croatians as a much smaller continuum of the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" in which the "White Croats" continued to exist.
Historians struggle to determine its exact location because they falsely equate it with the older "Horvatija/Megali Croatia" and try to draw a circle around all/most "Horvatian" enclaves and end up with ridiculous state borders from Bohemia over Pannonia down to the Black Sea.
Therefore "White Croatia" is just a mythical attempt to determine one single entity and location from which all modern croatians descended.

Let's focus on the last sentence: "Therefore "White Croatia" is just a mythical attempt to determine one single entity and location from which all modern croatians descended". I don't think that mythical entities work well in "Historical Immersion Project". If White Croatia was standalone submod, it wouldn't be an issue, but it comes along with improved Balkans and it's called "Better Slavs". It's weird to see historical events, like Council of Preslav and ahistorical stuff like big croatian-like culture from Bohemia to Moldavia and White Croatian kingdom.

If you want, I can even point out which parts of your introduction are wrong/doubtful or an ahistorical overstrech.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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If you want, I can even point out which parts of your introduction are wrong/doubtful or an ahistorical overstrech.
feel free.

The "kingdom" is not white croatia its the earlier Horvatija Megali/Great "Croatia". Its just a de jure leftover as its the best contigous title for 867 in that place.
The culture is indeed a stretch in this extend but i think "Polish" and "Russian" are far bigger stretches.

I don't think that mythical entities work well in "Historical Immersion Project".
Thats why they are not featured in my mod. Its just a tribe "Horvati" and its sadly the best assumption we have about what might have been there at this point in time.
I have made a setup to reflect a likely development of this region. Far more likely as "reverse history" will ever be like "yeah lets paint modern poland and russian ultra nationalism".
 

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I appreciate the effort, I truly do, but I cannot play CK2 when the region placement is utterly wrong and immersion breaking. I'll try to reinstall without the SWMH and use the vanilla map.

If the names are the issue, you can potentially also play with SED (Speak English Dammit), which turns most SWMH names into the names that an English historian would use (instead of localized names). In the other direction, there are also some submods like More Cultural Names (MCN) that add a whole bunch of extra, culture-specific names, and I'd imagine that Moravian names for most places in the Carpathian Basin outside of the Slovakian part would be one of those things.

If region placement is the issue, there's unfortunately no good answer for you. During my sweep of Hungary's baronies for Frosty1, I replaced a lot of incorrectly placed and/or actually unimportant settlements in Slovakia with ones that were more correctly placed and/or more important ones (e.g. it's how Malacky ended up actually present in SWMH in the newer version). However, the administrative divisions of the region varied so wildly throughout CK2's timeperiod, and province borders being fixed in CK2, means that no matter which map you take, you're always going to get immersion breakage. SWMH's map is meant to be able to represent the organization of the Kingdom of Hungary in 1000 and in the early 1200's the best. Vanilla's map doesn't seem like it was built to represent any historical divisions well (heck, in early versions of the game, even the Danube flowed through completely wrong territory), but IMO, it seems to be best set up to represent the divisions in the late 1200's and early 1300's. Like I said, there are no good answers.

I am all in for including all ethnicities in the game, if it is historical. I was surprised that they were as far as Spisz(Spiš) and Abauj(Abov), for as long as I am aware, they live only in the easternmost districts of Slovakia, south-western Ukraine, south-eastern Poland and north-western Romania.

This is where we run up against the issue of only being able to have one culture per province, and a little bit of naming confusion in this case as well.

Let's go with the naming confusion first. Abaúj/Abov and Szepes/Spiš in SWMH are not exactly the same as Abaúj/Abov and Szepes/Spiš as you know them, i.e. the territories that were called that starting from around the 18th to 19th century (and firmly established in 1867). Abaúj especially constantly had its administrative borders redrawn throughout history (though they always included Abaújvár, and generally seemed to hover around the historical territories of the Aba clan/family, themselves most likely originally Khavars/Khabars), and Szepes didn't even really exist as its own administrative entity until after the last start date in CK2. But we still have to call those regions of the map something, and Szepes still needs to be separate because while it didn't exist as its own administrative entity, the territory it marks did change hands fairly often, so Abaúj and Szepes it is. Especially if you're looking at the 867 start date (i.e. before the Aba clan even arrived in the area sometime between 893 and 907), you should think of those provinces not as the settlements themselves, but as the territory they cover; Szepes isn't the settlements in the Szepes barony, it's the territory in which those settlements would take hold later in history.

Now, the one culture per province issue. The Rusyns are/were kind of dotted all over the place in that region, especially because in CK2's timeperiod, they weren't actually a unified Rusyn group, they were actually 4-5 of the many East Slavic groups that later, through the evolution of borders and politics, got grouped into their own, separate, "Rusyn" category by outsiders, which they then slowly adopted as their unified identity in place of their old, subregional identities. Here's a rough map of where those 4-5 subregional identities were present (from Encyclopaedia Britannica):

Carpathian-Rus-Rusyn-homeland.jpg


Of course, the only reason those specific subgroups were called their own, special, "Rusyn" label is because of 18th-20th century politics, so there's no real way to know which groups of Southwestern Rus' would have actually become "Rusyn" had history gone down a different path. Hence, my previous points about the problems with Rus' consisting of a continuum of different regional varieties in language and culture (and why I presume there was much debate about where Mr. Dovakhiin drew the borders for his Horvatsky / White Croat culture and de jure Kingdom in his submod).

If CK2 had a proper system for supporting cultural minorities, they'd have minorities in Máramaros and Borsod as well, and Moravians (and later some Saxons) would have minorities in Szepes, Borsod, and Abaúj (Zemplén is pretty much the only place that definitely was predominantly Rusyn); again, I'm talking about the specific SWMH provinces, i.e. the territory that provinces named as such represent, not the 19th century historical administrative divisions. But alas, we do not, so for every province, we have to decide to represent the entire population of the province as all one culture. So, based on that map (and some other maps that show roughly the same thing), I decided that the territory covered by the provinces of Szepes, Abaúj, and Zemplén in SWMH are majority Rusyn, and that is why they are Rus', even if that does at first sight seem to place Rusyns more West than they actually were.
 
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Delnar_Ersike

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Delnar_Ersike, I have some suggestions and ideas regarding West Slavs, could I DM you about it?

I don't really work on SWMH all that much, that is mostly the domain of theKing1988 and ese_khan. You'll probably have better luck messaging them, though keep in mind that they probably do get a lot of messages already, so try to make yours thorough and properly sourced if you want them to take it seriously.

I was only "summoned" to this thread because I spent an inordinate amount of time tweaking 867-1036 Hungary and the Carpathian Basin for Frosty1, so I have kind of unofficially become SWMH's Hungary person (the internal discussion about splitting up East Slavic was due to my initial reaction to concluding that Rus'/Rusisku was the most appropriate culture for the groups that would later become known as Rusyns). I'm still kind of unhappy about the way Great Moravia's internals are set up, but that's more from a historical behavior perspective than a historical accuracy one, i.e. I haven't done much research and don't know much about Great Moravia's internal organization, but its internal organization in both CK2 and HIP results in the realm being too stable compared to how it actually was, which then requires the Hungarian confederation to have a super-railroaded setup of event troop doomstacks in order to make sure they can actually conquer the Carpathian Basin.
 

DorlasAnther

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I would say that the whole "which settlements should be represented in modern day Slovakia" thing cannot really be resolved due to, as mentioned, huge change in what places were important over time and lack of written records for 9th century that could provide us with this information. Outside of Nitra and Bratislava, I don´t remember any important Moravian settlement that did not lose that importance by 11th century.

What I find more important is renaming Great Moravia to simply Moravia (Morava) because that was the name used during its existence and also making sure it has Gavelkind and is Tribal (it was on its way to what CK2 would consider feudalism, but not quite there yet, I can´t check it right now, but I believe archaeologist Ivo Štefan has article about it in English posted on Academia.edu). For Gavelkind, argument is that the only time when Moravia got to do the whole succession thing on its own, both sons of Prince Svätopluk I. (using Slovak version of names) became princes of their respective principalities, Mojmír II. becoming Prince of Moravia and senior to his younger brother, Svätopluk II., who got Nitra.

Another important issue (and the one I have been speaking about for years) is splitting Moravian culture in starts after 9th century into Moravian and Slovak (using its medieval name that could be translated as Slovenian, or simply Slavic) since this is the name that has been used to describe people living in area of modern day Slovakia throughout the entirety of Middle Ages. The idea that political entity that existed for 70 years (give or take) in 9th century should be used as a blanket name for all Slavs who lived in area it controlled centuries after it fell is just wrong, especially when written sources from 1000 onwards called the area "land of the Slavs" who also simply called themselves "Slavs" (and do to this day while people in Moravia call themselves Czechs/Moravians). It´s simply a historically innacurate name that I have not seen used anywhere outside of HIP and would probably give Slovak historians/archaeologists a stroke if they saw it.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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and is Tribal (it was on its way to what CK2 would consider feudalism, but not quite there yet,
oh boy be careful what you say no matter how right you are. This might end up in a never ending discussion. I already had this discussion. And it was not worth the time so i just did it in my mod x)

About the culture name: yes... and no.
You have to draw a line somewhere with new slavic cultures. Its true that slovaks do not really fit under the regional "moravia" name but they were pretty much the very same people.
This is the problem with the entire slavic sphere as all the identities are very regional, from outside (like russian as norse rowers) or extremely universal (like polish which translates into farmers).
you cant create new cultures for every cluster of 5 provinces. Especially not where the people are FAR closer to each other as other cultures in HIP.
The best solution (but still kind of bad) would be that moravia melts into czech and the remaning moravians in slovakia change their name to slovieni but this is not possible

But the far best solution would be some mechanic to actually have a shitload of slavic cultures which dont have negative penalities for each other. Lets get real here: religious penalities are the only ones that make sense for slavs.
 

Erilaz

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But the far best solution would be some mechanic to actually have a shitload of slavic cultures which dont have negative penalities for each other. Lets get real here: religious penalities are the only ones that make sense for slavs.

I've actually been pondering whether putting all slavs into one group, with subgroups, would be good, but it's way too much of a hassle since a lot of culture (and other) code uses the groups.
 

TheDovahkiin97

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I've actually been pondering whether putting all slavs into one group, with subgroups, would be good, but it's way too much of a hassle since a lot of culture (and other) code uses the groups.
i hope one day there will be some sort of culturegroup-groups in ck3 maybe. Like Slavic, Latin, Germanic, African etc.

For now i am content with my Slavic and Southslavic culturegroups.
The religious division of west and east slavs is enough and a hard cut at the polish-russian border makes no sense at all.
Its basically the same with Croats and Serbs in the balkans. Different cultures with different religions but definitely inside the same group and not some sort of alien people like poles are to russians and vice versa in base HIP.

In base HIP and vanilla, poles have the same gameplay effect for ruling russian provinces like for example irish people ruling in india.