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Feb 17, 2009
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You do realise events are in the game to represent numerous things that can't be represented by the limited game mechanics right?

So there is no possible way of ever creating a "Surprise attack" modifier, it HAS to be Japan declaring war on the US in 41/42 or Germany going after the USSR at the same time? The fact that you don't realize or are unwilling to admit is that events and country specific modifiers and whatnot prevent the game engine from developing.

That is the bottom line. Paradox should make a better engine that is better at representing reality but at the same time keeping the game interesting to play (balanced, challenging). What Paradox shouldn't do is make a product that forces decisions down your throat and forces you to play a scripted game (so if you do Pearl Harbor in 1943 you get no surprise attack).

Name one "numerous thing" that couldn't be represented in a dynamic well-planned and most of all generic (all countries treated the same regardless of their TAG) game engine?
 

unmerged(123225)

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So there is no possible way of ever creating a "Surprise attack" modifier, it HAS to be Japan declaring war on the US in 41/42 or Germany going after the USSR at the same time? The fact that you don't realize or are unwilling to admit is that events and country specific modifiers and whatnot prevent the game engine from developing.
Well, Stalin and the general Soviet public did not expect a German invasion despite warnings and couple of hints, so I guess the surprise modifier can happen at any date the German invasion starts. As for Pearl Harbour I don't think there should be a surprise modifier, but that's not really relevent.

That is the bottom line. Paradox should make a better engine that is better at representing reality but at the same time keeping the game interesting to play (balanced, challenging). What Paradox shouldn't do is make a product that forces decisions down your throat and forces you to play a scripted game (so if you do Pearl Harbor in 1943 you get no surprise attack).
If Paradox can make the perfect game engine to reflect the reality I wouldn't say anything. The fact is that it's not possible. They experimented with EU3 and in my opinion the experimentation was a failure.
I never said events should be forced down your throat did I?

Name one "numerous thing" that couldn't be represented in a dynamic well-planned and most of all generic (all countries treated the same regardless of their TAG) game engine?
Pearl Harbour? Ideally it shouldn't be an event, but there really is no way to do this in the game.

Also the Flight of Rudolf Hess. Would love to hear how you would go about representing that in the game without an event.
 

PkK

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Well how crazy do you want it? I for one sure will be pissed if something ridiculous happened like Ireland with Carriers or Switzerland with nukes.

Just because a game is historically based doesn't mean you have to play it that way. If you want to join the Allies earlier in the war as Brazil and send more than 2 divisions or change the government to Communist so that you can join the Comintern it's up to you. But don't expect them to quadriple their industry in 8 years or build nukes because that's not possible with the historical setting. If you want to defy historical plausibility in the game there are lot of fantasy games out there for you.

IMO if Ireland had decided it wants a carrier and concentrated research and industrial effort onthis goal they could have done so during thegame time; sure they probably would have to raise taxes, vut back on other government projects, etc and it might have causes some dissent, but I see no reason they could not have succeeded.

Historically switzerland made no efforts towards no nuclear weapons before september 1945 (and they officially ended their nuclear weapons program in 1988, though it was effectively abandoned in the late 60s). I doubt they could have succeeded during the game's time frame even if they had made an earlier and more concentrated effort.

Philipp
 

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IMO if Ireland had decided it wants a carrier and concentrated research and industrial effort onthis goal they could have done so during thegame time; sure they probably would have to raise taxes, vut back on other government projects, etc and it might have causes some dissent, but I see no reason they could not have succeeded.

Historically switzerland made no efforts towards no nuclear weapons before september 1945 (and they officially ended their nuclear weapons program in 1988, though it was effectively abandoned in the late 60s). I doubt they could have succeeded during the game's time frame even if they had made an earlier and more concentrated effort.

Philipp

I don't doubt that those things were possible, but they're unplausible and I'm sure no one wants the AIs to go crazy like that unless the player's actions drive the AIs to go nuts, but even that is questionable.
 

unmerged(81995)

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It is extremely easy to make a good looking game that "keeps it together" as long as you do exactly as scripted. It is extremely difficult to make a game where you can make an action, expect appropriate consequences to that action and so forth.

Yep. That´s exactly what I were after starting this thread. Consequence - make it a players choice at start. A "free" game where USA goes fascist dictatorship - and a "historical" game where players actions are limited to the historical plausible, like Germany chooses to pull off Sealion in 1940 or 1941 instead of atacking SU - or try to ally to Poland in preparation of attacking SU. Makes it pretty easy for the devs - they could set a price tag on unhistorical behaviour that borders torture :).

I am fuly aware of the limitations of games - THAT was what triggered my proposal.

Regards,

Thorsten
 

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Yep. That´s exactly what I were after starting this thread. Consequence - make it a players choice at start. A "free" game where USA goes fascist dictatorship - and a "historical" game where players actions are limited to the historical plausible, like Germany chooses to pull off Sealion in 1940 or 1941 instead of atacking SU - or try to ally to Poland in preparation of attacking SU. Makes it pretty easy for the devs - they could set a price tag on unhistorical behaviour that borders torture :).

I am fuly aware of the limitations of games - THAT was what triggered my proposal.

Regards,

Thorsten

So basically you want an option to allow the AI to do more non-historical stuff? Personally, I would rather have the AI stick close to history. Only once I start to make non-historical choices will the AI respond likewise.
 

unmerged(39280)

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If Paradox can make the perfect game engine to reflect the reality I wouldn't say anything. The fact is that it's not possible. They experimented with EU3 and in my opinion the experimentation was a failure.
No it wasn't a "failure", not according to MANY players that think EU3IN is the best EU game so far. "Perfect" game engine will never be possible but to be honest, EU2 engine was a bigger "failure" than EU3 and i believe Johann himself said it. Of curse for a HoI game historical events make much more sense than in EU game.
 
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Cardus

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No it wasn't a "failure", not according to MANY players that think EU3IN is the best EU game so far. "Perfect" game engine will never be possible but to be honest, EU2 engine was a bigger "failure" than EU3 and i believe Johann himself said it. Of curse for a HoI game historical events make much more sense than in EU game.

In matter of opinion I have a very diffent opinion. I dont think to be the only one because quoting Magna Mundi "a numerous group, but without the backing of Paradox, felt that EU3 was little better than a fantasy game with historical names, randomized each time it started"
 

unmerged(39280)

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I was talking about the so-called "historical" events and forcing historical outcomes "down yor throat" as Fluffamable called it vs the idea of game engine being able to simulate things like the surprise attacks in 1941.
Magna Mundi as in Magna Mundi mod ? They added historical events ?
 
Mar 6, 2009
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I'd love to play HOI as a fantasy game with WWII names. Random built map, Tech levels, choose your government, strengths and weaknesses. Something like a HOI meets CIV. For me, it's not about 'can I beat Poland in 14 days this time'. It's more of a fantasy game seeing that I already know how it should turn out.
 

Darlor

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I'm neither a programmer or a historian so my comments may not be possible but here goes.

A game is a game and anything within the rules should be possible. Given that, I see no reason for a player who wants a "historical" game experience, happenings that were plausable have a reasonable chance to happen, being penalized for wanting that experience. It is a game about WW2 after all.

For the player who wants anything goes, then the event tree should deviate significantly in response to the degree of "ahistorical" behavior. As an example: USA palyer wants to invade Canada yields massive dissent and internal uprisings in the USA. The average citizen would not put up with it in a free society. Totalitarian societies are a different animal. Perhaps this is too difficult to program but the real question what degree of realism does one want. As a game set in a historical era, I expect a historical mileau with some freedom to try what ifs.

Minors wanting to raise some sand, let them. Just remember that there are large nations that have vested interests and events to simulate aggression in spheres of influence would help simulate a real world while providing an interesting experience.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth,

Darlor
 

unmerged(135995)

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I really don't get this debate. I've played my share of Hearts of Iron II and it were the ahistorical parts that were fun.

Why?

Because I know how the real stuff went.

The point of a game is to be fun. If you force the player to play historically, it wouldn't be a game. It would be an interactive history book.

I'm one of the people who enjoys conquering the world with Ireland, or help the Axis as a Fascist Netherlands. That's fun.

In my eyes the Paradox games give you a setting which is (mostly) historically true, but the moment you begin it diverges from our history. And it should be like this. Again, where's the fun in "playing" a game that is historically correct?

An A.I. which would actually pose a threat without being favoured by the engine would be great, though.
 

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IMO if Ireland had decided it wants a carrier and concentrated research and industrial effort onthis goal they could have done so during thegame time; sure they probably would have to raise taxes, vut back on other government projects, etc and it might have causes some dissent, but I see no reason they could not have succeeded.
Philipp

But see that's kind of the point Fluffable was hitting on, Ireland (not British North Ireland) didn't (correct me if I'm wrong) have shipyards capable of producing a capital ship. Moreover it would take more then a year and a half (as per HoI2) to build a carrier, especially for a country with no large ships for conversion and no experience in modern warship construction. Even the most experienced nations generally took three to four years to complete a fleet carrier from order to commission. This is all without considering doctrinal and technological development as well as the need for aircraft.

While I dont necessarily agree that events are evil, I think some people are missing part of Fluffable's point in terms of HoI2 lacking realism. Sure there are some areas (AI for example) in which the engine limited how realistic the game could be. Yes, we can hope that HoI3 improves in this area. However, many of the unhistorical issues in HoI2 were deliberate (not technology or cash limited) decisions made by Paradox in line with whatever particular philosophy they hold. Heavily skewed IC distributions, dramatically shortened build times, lack of meaningful attrition in winter campaigns, etc. are all examples of the programmers choosing to alter the physical realities at that time to create some semblance of balance between the various powers.

Indeed as AI improves from each iteration to the next, I suspect that these ahistorical balancing measures will actually be magnified. Heck even with existing HoI2 mods that try and create a more realistic order of battle, Germany is often not able to beat the French because the AI doesnt make the dumb decisions the French leadership did. So much of Germany's success in WW2 was due to their enemies making colossally bad decisions rather then a superiority of arms. This is particularly hard to model into a game that focuses on numbers. I suppose you could intentionally make some AIs dumb, but that seems to be going in the wrong direction.
 

Mierin

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I really don't get this debate. I've played my share of Hearts of Iron II and it were the ahistorical parts that were fun.

Why?

Because I know how the real stuff went.

The point of a game is to be fun. If you force the player to play historically, it wouldn't be a game. It would be an interactive history book.

I'm one of the people who enjoys conquering the world with Ireland, or help the Axis as a Fascist Netherlands. That's fun.

In my eyes the Paradox games give you a setting which is (mostly) historically true, but the moment you begin it diverges from our history. And it should be like this. Again, where's the fun in "playing" a game that is historically correct?

An A.I. which would actually pose a threat without being favoured by the engine would be great, though.

I think this simply boils down to the fact that people perceive different things as fun. For me I prefer the more brutally realistic mods because I enjoy the learning process that goes along with understanding the realities of the given situations. Its that moment of 'ahh now I understand why the Italians did so poorly' as I get my butt kicked across North Africa. Or 'man I really have to take Moscow before the first snowfall or else I'm toast'- followed by me failing to do so. The sense of urgency gives me the feeling that I am actually experiencing the strategic thoughts of the time. The advantage I have over the real Germany, for example, is I can try again with a different strategy. It wouldnt matter that I will lose 99/100, its trying to find that 1 time or perhaps simply doing my best to delay the inevitable that is fun to me.
 

unmerged(123225)

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I really don't get this debate. I've played my share of Hearts of Iron II and it were the ahistorical parts that were fun.

Why?

Because I know how the real stuff went.

The point of a game is to be fun. If you force the player to play historically, it wouldn't be a game. It would be an interactive history book.

I'm one of the people who enjoys conquering the world with Ireland, or help the Axis as a Fascist Netherlands. That's fun.

In my eyes the Paradox games give you a setting which is (mostly) historically true, but the moment you begin it diverges from our history. And it should be like this. Again, where's the fun in "playing" a game that is historically correct?

An A.I. which would actually pose a threat without being favoured by the engine would be great, though.

You are right, you don't get this debate. No one ever advocated forcing the player to play historically. People have CONSTANTLY made such accusations against me because they don't understand the simple difference between forcing history into the game and having a game with some decency of historical plausibility. Want to play an Axis Neatherlands? Fine, but you have to change your government first and gain Germany's trust. Want to conquer the world as Ireland? Go ahead and try, but don't expect to get a 300 division out of the sky for that task or have enough industry to build the world's largest navy to conquer the world's oceans.

And if anyone wants to play a fantasy WW2 game they are free to delete all events/decisions and AI files which are bound to make the game *gasp* 'historical'.
 

DocMorningstar

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Historical choices are often dumb choices...

I've never liked the scripting function - a dead yamamoto when I'm *not* at war with the US (or when I am beating the crap out of them) always pisses me off.

What *needs* to exist is for the game engine to simulate the actual effects based on an overal game condition - not a specific trigger.

Right now anschluss (sp) happens right on schedule - wether germany is planning on being a warmonger or not (except if you are already at war... see what I mean about stupid triggers) how anschluss should work is that IF germany 'threatens' Austria (builds up a pile of troops on the border) and IF Austria is sufficiently 'pro-german/fascist' and IF germany 'demands' anschluss, then maybe you get an anschluss event (with the likelyhood of Austria accepting being tied directly to how much they like you as well as to how big a stick you are threatening htem with).

There is no reason that germany shouldn't be able to say to switzerland 'listen, buddies, either you join us, or you freaking die' why can't we have a 'swiss anschluss' or hungarian?

Something like this should be fairly doable to make happen.

Look at the following factors:

How closely are the two countries aligned (IE - ideology)

Has one country 'demanded' territory/annexation?

How much 'force' is being projected against the country under threat (how big are their relative armies, how much of that army is arranged on the border)

How good is the national unity of the county 'under threat' (if the swiss are nationalistic enough, they will tell der fuhrer to fly a kite)

How much 'support' does the country under threat have (Poland + the allies is more likely to stand up to germany rather than Poland all by themselves)

Maybe factor in belligerance into the equation? Use it as a modifier that amplifies both the effect that the difference in army size plays (a big army in the hands of a guy willing to use it is scary) AND into the effect of national unity (a very unified country may be much, much, more willing to go to war against a more aggressive nation) - this way it would become a much bigger gamble for the demanding power that was very aggressive.

Finally, build in realistic consequences to the whole process - IE, if the country under threat rejects your demands, it isn't instant war, but rather a significant 'dump' to your internation prestige, national unity, and bad for your belligerance, too - this will keep it from being a 'freebie' way to maybe get an entire country for free.

By doing that, you can set up the preconditions so that germany can 'demand' territorial concessions out of whoever they want - whether they get what they ask for is essentially dependent on the relative conditions of the two countries AT THAT POINT! Meaning you can get an austrian anschluss whenever you want (maybe).

The final thing I would say, is that you would/should need SIGNIFICANT levels of idealogical similarity, a very credible threat (enough force VISIBLE, on the border to annihilate the entire enemy army), and probably fairly crappy national unity for this to succeed.


If you come up with an accurate way to simulate these things, you can get away with the worst part of scripting - that is, inappropriate scripts firing.
Include some level of power-hungriness into all the countries (essentially how bad they want to take over their enemies - this of course could change over time depending on how the political structure of that country changes). If a country is 'power hungry' it should look at its neighbors, and try to determine who it can intimidate into joining it - and to pursue this strategy against its neighbors.

In this manner, if you set up Austria with a heavily fascist governement, and poor national unity and Germany with a fascist government and a powerful 'power hungry' value - the AI should naturally pursue annexation of austria (or invasion if annexation fails). Once austria falls...the czechs would start to look attracitive (now germany has a bigger border with them, allowing them to build up a scarier force on the border). Eventually this would lead to Poland 'Danzig or war'

IMHO - I would ALSO set up the 'territorial demand' to be effectively unlimited IF IT SUCCEEDS - once it fails, I would take the 'demand' option off the board for a LONG time. This of course leads to the question of how much you demand at a time.

You can simulate 'surprise' the same way.

Figure in the relative positions of the two militaries, their idealogies & alliances, and the actual positions of the troops.

This could be simulated by giving a Malus to the troops of ANY country that is attacked 'unaware' - ways to NOT be unaware would be having good sigint relative to whoever DOWs you, having your troops on the border, having your ships at sea (I like the idea of having your ships at sea contribute to the overall 'readiness' state of your military -it would give the major naval powers a 'reason' to spend oil and effort when essentially nothing else is going on - the idea is that even if you don't have a huge navy, maintaining a naval patrol indicates tha tyou don't want to be caught flat footed - sort of an institutional attitude against surpise)

To simulate this - think of Barbarossa.

Russia has crappy sigint, and is maintaining a poor state of military readiness on the border (that is, germany has piled up a significant amount of troops on the border without a russian response), and the red fleet is sitting in port.

Germany launches a 'surprise' attack, which because Russia is unprepared for, Russia suffers an org/surprise hit for some set period of time.

Now if Germany telegraphed their intentions TOO much (piled up huge forces on the border too early) and the russians moved heavy troops into place to face them, you should argue that high command was AWARE of the risk, and had prepared them for the prospect -meaning no surprise factor.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter

-DOc