Historical divisions templates

[Bki]

Paradox will only have so much time to research the historical divisions composition, and their focus will be more on things like gameplay, balance, etc... Which isn't a bad thing. But we already know there will be complaint about things.

So why not pre-empt things? There are many thread about the techtree of various country. This one aims to gather the historical divisions composition of the various belligreant, translated in game term.

Of course, not all of those should be available at the start of the game, but the starting templates and average experience gain should allow for them to be created by the year of their introduction.

Given that it's the one country for which I've looked into the 1939 oob, I will start with some templates for French divisions in 1939-1940.

Infantry division :

Both infantry and motorized infantry follow the same structure, though obviously the elements of the later are motorized. They are comprised of three infantry regiments, two artillery regiments (one with 75mm, the other with either 105 or 155mm), and one recon regiment (half-track and AC for motorised division, and cavalry for infantry). An anti-tank battery would be added to that, as well as two engineers company, and various support troops.

An infantry regiment would be comprised of 3 bataillons.

Artillery in HOI4 will be a support unit. I'm assuming the same will be the case with recon and engineers... I'm assuming two type of artillery : "normal" artillery and heavy artillery.

The division would thus look like this :

1 - Inf, Inf, Inf
2 - Inf, Inf, Inf
3 - Inf, Inf, Inf
Support - Art, H-Art, AT, Eng, Recon

For a motorised infantry division :

1 - Mot, Mot, Mot
2 - Mot, Mot, Mot
3 - Mot, Mot, Mot
Support - Mot-Art, Mot-H-Art, Mot-AT, Eng, AC

Division Cuirassé (Armoured division) :

One of the two types of armoured division. They were comprised of two armoured "demi-brigades" (one of heavy tank and one of light tank), a motorised infantry bataillon, a motorised artillery regiment (with a battery of anti-tank guns), an engineer company, and some support.

In HOI4 division term, it would be something like that :

1 - H-Arm, H-Arm
2 - L-Arm, L-Arm
3 - Mot
Support - Mot-Art, Mot-AT, Eng

Divison Légère Mécanique (Light mechanised division) :

The light in the name denote its speed, not what sort of armour it has. It's the second type of armoured division the French had, and obtained excellent results during the Battle of France.

(I will note here that inheriting the regiments names from when cavalry was still a major part of battles is annoying, because there's dragons regiments which were motorised infantry, and others which were armoured regiments... Very confusing)

They had two armoured regiments (each comprised of a mix of light and medium tanks), one armoured-car regiment, and a motorised infantry regiment. In addition to that were a motorised artillery regiment, engineers, anti-tank weapons, and AA.

Which would give us :

1 - Arm, L-Arm
2 - Arm, L-Arm
3 - Mot, Mot, Mot
Support : Mot-Art, Mot-AT, Mot-AA, AC, Eng

Division Légère de Cavalrie (Light Cavalry division) :

Those were a reorganisation in 1940 of the previous cavalry divisions.

2 cavalry regiment, one armoured car regiment, a motorised infantry regiment (but of only two bataillons), artillery, anti-tanks weapons, AA and engineers.

1 - Cav, Cav
2 - Cav, Cav
3 - Mot, Mot
Support : Mot-Art, Mot-AT, Mot-AA, AC, Eng


And that's it for the different divisions used by the French in 1940 (though there were some reorganisation made after they lost many of their forces in Belgium)...

I will not have the courage to do the same thing for others countries (whether they be majors or minors), but I'm sure there will be many with both the knowledge and will to do so. As well as correct any mistake I made.

 

[Lollardheretics]

First of all, thank you. That's a good idea actually !

Can you add the number of men for each type of historical french division ?
In game it will be something like 1000 for each Bat/Support (guessing from the division planner, 8 bat and 4 support = 12 000), so maybe for having the right number we will need to add/remove some bat.

 

[Bki]

First of all, thank you. That's a good idea actually !

Can you add the number of men for each type of historical french division ?
In game it will be something like 1000 for each Bat/Support (guessing from the division planner, 8 bat and 4 support = 12 000), so maybe for having the right number we will need to add/remove some bat.

I had the impression that support units could be of various size, some which could be bataillon, sized, while other might be larger, or smaller (artillery often was in regiment for example).

Anyway, the size...

An infantry division had :
14318 men
1723 NCO
497 officers

In total.

A bataillon would be comprised of

662 soldiers, 185 NCO and 20 officers.

A regiment : 3076 men total.

For the artillery regiments :
The regiment with 75 mm would have 1873 men, 212 NCO, 68 officers, and 36 canon de 75mm.
The other would have 1677 men, 68 officiers (where did the NCO disappear? Not sure if they're forgotten or counted with the rank and files), and 24 canon de 155mm.

The recon component (which seems a little small for a regiment looking at it. It might be more like a bataillon equivalent) had : 28 officers, 63 NCO and 587 men.

If motorised, there's actually two variants, one with armoured car, the other without. The first has 42 officers, 126 NCO and 813 men, with 16 armoured cars, as well as a good amount of motorbike and cars.
The second variant has 553 men, 74 NCO and 26 officers, as well as motorised vehicles.

The engineer companies (of which the division has two) are compriseds of 5 officers, 25 NCO and 252 men.

As for the anti-tanks units, there's actually two :

The first is an anti-tank company with 4 officers, 21 NCO and 122 men, as well as 12 canons de 25mm AC.

The second is an anti-tank battery of 5 officers, 18 NCO and 182 men, and 8 canons de 47mm AC.

I may do the same for the other divisions at a later point.

 

[bruebottom]

HOI IV will most likely have generic battalions, but the game should be completely modable in this aspect. Modders will be able to create accurate paper-strength battalion TO&E's for each nation.

The division template, iirc, is a 5 * 5 grid with 5 support battalions and 4 brigades slots (each with space for 5 battalions). If this is not hard coded into the game, then we should be able to increase the number of support battalions slots so that we can have non-combat units for immersion; IE., Div HQ's and a comms and/or service battalion. We could also create brigade HQ's and assign them to the first brigade slot with the battalions below it.

There was little in the standardization of the SS divisions and as such a modder should be able to create templates for each SS division. As the war progressed these SS division saw their TO&E change over time, and a mod based on immersion should allow for this.

Russian divisions saw their TO&E strength decline as the war progressed and to mod that into the game will be an awesome immersive experience.

The great thing about this is the game is going to do the work for us as templates change over time, and we do not have to waste time changing each division to get that immersive experience. It can be done in HOI III, but it is a lot of work for both the modder and player.

 

[Bki]

Supports troops are not really "supports battalions", though. Here the relevant quote from the dev diary :

A Division Template is made up of Brigades which are made up of Battalions, this is represented by a grid of cells in 6 columns of 5 rows with each column being a Brigade and each cell being a Battalion - With the exception that the left-most column are Support Units of varying sizes. Support Units are different in that they either lend useful abilities such, as an improved reconnaissance ability, or powerful direct or indirect fire to your frontline troops.

To me this indicate that a support unit might be either an artillery regiment, an engineer battalions, or an anti-tank company. And you might even be able to chose the size of the support units (even if that's not in the base game, it would be an easy thing to mod : just add company/battalion/regiment sized variation for the support units).

(aside from that, it is 5 brigades slot of at most 5 battalions, + 5 supports units)

 

[bruebottom]

Supports troops are not really "supports battalions", though. Here the relevant quote from the dev diary :



To me this indicate that a support unit might be either an artillery regiment, an engineer battalions, or an anti-tank company. And you might even be able to chose the size of the support units (even if that's not in the base game, it would be an easy thing to mod : just add company/battalion/regiment sized variation for the support units).

(aside from that, it is 5 brigades slot of at most 5 battalions, + 5 supports units)

I'm not disagreeing with you on the vanilla aspect of HOI IV. What Podcat has said and how you have interpreted the division template is how I see it.

However, divisions are not one size fits all templates and a modder should be able to go beyond what has been shown in the division DD. For example, the 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen has 3 main brigades (one of them is an artilery brigade) and 7 combat support battalions. In adddition to this is another 7 non-combat support units (plus the division HQ). I'm not suggestings to mod all of this, but allowing for more than 5 support units will be needed for an immersive mod.

If you are not familuar with the HOI III mods DWI and RPM2 (and maybe a couple others) then they either have a 9 brigade system or are developing a 9 brigade system. The main modders are even planning on adding non-combat brigade files for immersion; ie, DV HQ.

I suspect we will see some HOI IV mods with more than 5 combat-support battalions and some non-combat-support battalions. Modders should also be able to add combat-support units to the brigades as well; ie. Flak panzer plattons to panzer regiments. This is much more immerisive than abstracting in the aa value for a flak panzer company, because the platton will have its own aa stats.

 

[podcat]

For reference, the actual OOB format looks like this:

it uses grid coordinates everywhere even though support is a single line

division_template = {
	name = "Infantry Division"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
       		infantry = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 2 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 2 y = 2 }
	}
	
	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 1 }
	}
}
division_template = {
	name = "Panzer Division"

	regiments = {
		light_armor = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		light_armor = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	light_armor = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		light_armor = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		motorized = { x = 2 y = 0 }
        	motorized = { x = 2 y = 1 }
	}
	support = {
        	recon = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
	}
}

 

[debozewolf]

Is it possible to add more than one artillery battalion?

 

[tommylotto]

easy

	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
	}

The question is will the game recognize it...

Also, is there a limit on the number of support battalions? I see a german support looking like this:

	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 3 }
        	anti_tank = { x = 0 y = 4 }
        	anti_air = { x = 0 y = 5 }
        	mot_cav_recon = { x = 0 y = 6 }
	}

Or alternatively (if the support units come in varying sizes):

	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery_regiment = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	anti_tank = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	anti_air = { x = 0 y = 3 }
        	mot_cav_recon = { x = 0 y = 4 }
	}

And here is an Italian infantry division in mid-1940:

division_template = {
	name = "Infantry Division"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
       		militia = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		militia = { x = 2 y = 1 }

	}
	
	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 3 }
        	mortar = { x = 0 y = 4 }
	}
}

Or, if we have varying sizes of support units, that support could look like this:

	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery_regiment = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	anti_tank_company = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	mortar = { x = 0 y = 3 }
	}
}

Please note that Italy reorganized its division structure in 1938 to go from triangular to binary. In 1936, at the time of the game start, an Italian division should look something like this:

division_template = {
	name = "Infantry Division"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
       		infantry = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 2 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 2 y = 2 }

	}
	
	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 3 }
        	machine_gun = { x = 0 y = 4 }
	}
}

Again, if we have varying sizes of support units, that support could look like this:

	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	artillery_regiment = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	machine_gun = { x = 0 y = 2 }
	}
}

It would be nice if an AI only event changed the Italian template in 1938 from triangular to binary, then in March of 1940 to add the CCNN legion.

 

[bruebottom]

The question is will the game recognize it...

Also, is there a limit on the number of support battalions? I see a german support looking like this:

I suspect we will have to change an interface file to have more space for additional support battalions, but why not form up the artillery into a brigade as the infantry is. That will save space for other support battalions.

division_template = {
	name = "Infantry Division"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
       		artillery = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		artillery = { x = 2 y = 1 }
		artillery = { x = 2 y = 2 }
	}
	
	support = {
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	anti_tank = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	anti_air = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	mot_cav_recon = { x = 0 y = 3 }
	}
}

@Podcat, thanks for sharing the code.

 

[tommylotto]

Or have different size support units...

artillery_company
artillery_battalion
artillery_regiment
artillery_brigade

So, artillery will only take up one slot but still can vary in size.

 

[bruebottom]

Or have different size support units...

artillery_company
artillery_battalion
artillery_regiment
artillery_brigade

So, artillery will only take up one slot but still can vary in size.

The Prinz Eugen division is a large division and having the artillery as battalions in a brigade may create less work for adding additional support brigades - 8 in total for the 1942 OOB.

division_template = {
	name = "7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs Division Prinz Eugen 1942"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
       		artillery = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		artillery = { x = 2 y = 1 }
		artillery = { x = 2 y = 2 }
		artillery = { x = 2 y = 3 }
	}
	
	support = {
        	armoured_recon_battalion = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	motorcycle_battalion = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	panzer_battalion = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	anti_tank_battalion = { x = 0 y = 3 }
		engineering_battalion = { x = 0 y = 4 }
		anti_air_battalion = { x = 0 y = 5 }
		wheeled_recon_battalion = { x = 0 y = 6 }
		cavallery_battalion = { x = 0 y = 7 }
	}
}

There is also the in-game effect as I do not think there has been any images posted of the division. In HOI III we can peer into each division and see the various brigade elements. Viewing an artillery regiment with three or four battalions might be more appealing.


This example shows that a few divisions will need more than 5 support units, and it will be the modder's preference on how to code up the division template - whether the artillery is a support unit of various sizes or in a brigade with battalions.

 

[Centurion1973]

My planned divisions:

division_template = {
	name = "Panzer Division"

	regiments = {
		medium_armor = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		medium_armor = { x = 0 y = 1 }
                medium_armor = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	mechanized = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		mechanized = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		mechanized = { x = 1 y = 2 }
	}
	support = {
        	recon = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	SP_artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	SP_artillery = { x = 0 y = 3 }
        	motorized_AAA = { x = 0 y = 4}
	}
division_template = {
	name = "Motorized Infantry"

	regiments = {
		motorized = { x = 0 y = 0 }
                motorized = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	motorized = { x = 0 y = 2 }
		motorized = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		motorized = { x = 1 y = 1 }
	}
	support = {
        	tank_destroyer = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	SP_artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	motorized_AAA = { x = 0 y = 3}
	}
division_template = {
	name = "Infantry"

	regiments = {
		infantry = { x = 0 y = 0 }
                infantry = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	infantry = { x = 0 y = 2 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		infantry = { x = 1 y = 2 }
		infantry = { x = 2 y = 0 }
                infantry = { x = 2 y = 1 }
	}
	support = {
        	antitank_gun = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	engineer = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	artillery = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	recon = { x = 0 y = 3}
	}

 

[tommylotto]

The Prinz Eugen division is a large division and having the artillery as battalions in a brigade may create less work for adding additional support brigades - 8 in total for the 1942 OOB.

There is also the in-game effect as I do not think there has been any images posted of the division. In HOI III we can peer into each division and see the various brigade elements. Viewing an artillery regiment with three or four battalions might be more appealing.


This example shows that a few divisions will need more than 5 support units, and it will be the modder's preference on how to code up the division template - whether the artillery is a support unit of various sizes or in a brigade with battalions.

You are assuming there is a division window that shows separately named regiments and battalions. I am not so sure about that. I hope so, but I'm not so sure.

I think artillery (as a support, non-frontage, non-combat unit) needs to be in the support column and cannot be in the combat regiment columns. So, you need to either add 8 or 9 slots to the support column or you could just add different size support units. I think I would prefer different size support units, because you could then represent divisions that had company sized anti-tank or recon components as well as divisions that had regiments or even brigade sized artillery components. Here would be my take on Prince Eugen:

division_template = {
	name = "7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs Division Prinz Eugen"

	regiments = {
		mountain = { x = 0 y = 0 }
		mountain = { x = 0 y = 1 }
		mountain = { x = 0 y = 2 }
        	mountain = { x = 1 y = 0 }
		mountain = { x = 1 y = 1 }
		mountain = { x = 1 y = 2 }
		armor = { x = 2 y = 0 }
		cavalry = { x = 2 y = 1 }
		bike_infantry = { x = 2 y = 2 }
	}
	
	support = {
        	mot_recon = { x = 0 y = 0 }
        	alpine_artillery_regiment = { x = 0 y = 1 }
        	anti_tank = { x = 0 y = 2 }
		engineer = { x = 0 y = 3 }
		anti_air = { x = 0 y = 4 }	
	}
}

And I would not even have to mod the Division Designer interface.

 

[Mitsugi]

The US is easy, because there were so few divisional organizations:
Infantry: 9 infantry (semi-mot?), 4 (truck or tractor-towed) arty (3 105mm, 1 155mm), engineer. Possibly make it 5 arty, depending on whether the 18 105mm howitzers in the infantry regiments are counted already. I'm counting the 37mm and 57mm guns as integral to the division, rather than as AT battalions.
Armor: 4 armor, 2 light armor, 3 mech inf, 3 SP-arty, engineer, recon. In late 1943, make it 3 armor, 3 mech, 3 SP-arty, engineer, recon except for the first three armored divisions. 1st reorganized in mid 44, 2nd and 3rd didn't. In practice, they often attached out some of their excess armor to infantry divisions and took in more infantry. Actually, all of the armored divisions frequently detached a combat command
Airborne: Theoretically, 4 glider inf, 3 para, engineer, 2 glider arty, 1 para arty, 1 AA. Except that none of the divisions fought like that. The 82nd in Italy had 2 glider inf and 6 para, and in France the 82nd and 101st had 2 glider inf and 9 para.
Cavalry: The 1st Cavalry Division was reorganized as a square infantry division and fought in the Pacific.
Marine: Until mid 1943, 9 marine, 1 light armor, 3 engineer (well, 2 and 1 SeaBee), 3 light arty and 1 arty, 1 hybrid AT/AA battalion. Mid 43-mid 44, add 1 arty. Mid 44 onwards, replace light armor with armor, delete the SeaBee battalion and the AT/AA unit. Again, not counting the artillery in the infantry regiments.

None of these include divisional supply/truck/amphibian tractor/medical/etc. units.

The difficult bit is the non-organic support. As a general rule, most US infantry divisions had a motorized-AA, a TD, and an armor battalion attached while in combat. Armored divisions normally got a SP-AA battalion, and frequently had a 155mm arty battalion and a TD battalion attached. We could just make it fixed, and it's not a problem. But recon, engineers, and a lot of artillery were attached out more temporarily, particularly for major operations.

 

[Gamer_1745]

@Podcat, thanks for sharing the code.

+1

 

[Gamer_1745]

Or have different size support units...

artillery_company
artillery_battalion
artillery_regiment
artillery_brigade

So, artillery will only take up one slot but still can vary in size.

That would be OK. I would like to see different type of Artillery Units (Heavy, standard, light, mountain, Rocket & others). So the units get the right type of equipment auto replacements. If some division templates have 1 standard Art. Bat and some have 1 standard Art. Bat. & 1 heavy Art. Bat. This is a major reason I want more than one support bat for weapon type & more than one type within a support type.

As a modder I would like to give players historical templates and the players not need to worry about the right equipment getting to the right place.

 

[Centurion1973]

@Podcat, thanks for sharing the code.

+1

 

[podcat]

This example shows that a few divisions will need more than 5 support units

what would you imagine the actual gameplay difference between these:

armoured_recon_battalion
motorcycle_battalion
wheeled_recon_battalion
cavallery_battalion

would be in this case??

as for panzer_battalion, thats a frontline unit, so cant be placed in support.

these can though
anti_tank_battalion
engineering_battalion
anti_air_battalion

we'll clarify some of the rules in future diaries etc although its all moddable so you can pretty much script up any rules you want for mods for how the system works.

 

[Lollardheretics]

as for panzer_battalion, thats a frontline unit, so cant be placed in support.

these can though
anti_tank_battalion
engineering_battalion
anti_air_battalion

Thank you so much pod !

So, about historical template :

It just need a little imagination with the Template. You can't have 7 support bat, however you can deploy some of it into the frontline brigade.
You can fill the 4th brigade with an AA brigade per example ! And there is some space to unlock with tech, so i presume it won't be a problem.