Historical Divisions - Germany

[panzeroo]

BICE is massively unbalanced and cluttered with useless feature-creep for the sake of having feature-creep.

Its balance will never be addressed because it's designed by people with the logic of "it's not our fault if you break the game by not roleplaying".

Sure there's good stuff in there too, but the above is the sum of the mod as a whole.

Btw this is coming from someone who has played BICE for HoI3 for at least ~6 years and modded it extensively for personal use, so this post is not a case of the typical mod scare of "it's different so I don't like it".

all very well coming from someone who has played BICE for 6 years BICE is a massive mod, it takes time and alot of effort to work through our concepts, balance the concepts and fine tune the details. Hint...BICE for HOI3 was 7 years in the making much of which was with a complete base game from paradox. BICE for HOI IV is 1 1/2 year in the making, using a base game still being developed. the conclusion here is not rocket science

 

[Fulmen]

all very well coming from someone who has played BICE for 6 years BICE is a massive mod, it takes time and alot of effort to work through our concepts, balance the concepts and fine tune the details. Hint...BICE for HOI3 was 7 years in the making much of which was with a complete base game from paradox. BICE for HOI IV is 1 1/2 year in the making, using a base game still being developed. the conclusion here is not rocket science

Just to name an example, it took 1-2 years and one Let's Play series by @BarrosRodrigues to finally get rid of ART divisions. Back when BICE made the change to add CW to support brigades, I stated (I think this was both on Steam to @panzeroo and in threads on the forums) the extremely obvious fact that unless ART's stats were nerfed, ART would be OP and render other brigade types for "infantry" divisions useless. I was met with what essentially amounted to "don't blame us if you break the game by not roleplaying". I've seen this time and again with other extremely questionable design decisions with BICE, both in HoI3 and HoI4.

Development time btw has nothing to do with it when it's an obvious imbalance and is a matter of changing a few lines within 5 minutes.

 

[panzeroo]

Just to name an example, it took 1-2 years and one Let's Play series by @BarrosRodrigues to finally get rid of ART divisions. Back when BICE made the change to add CW to support brigades, I stated (I think this was both on Steam to @panzeroo and in threads on the forums) the extremely obvious fact that unless ART's stats were nerfed, ART would be OP and render other brigade types for "infantry" divisions useless. I was met with what essentially amounted to "don't blame us if you break the game by not roleplaying". I've seen this time and again with other extremely questionable design decisions with BICE, both in HoI3 and HoI4.

Development time btw has nothing to do with it when it's an obvious imbalance and is a matter of changing a few lines within 5 minutes.

Yes, player exploits are a thing in all HOI games and mods Its not even a case of role playing, rather if a player likes to play with exploits, so be it. Eventually we find a way to fix it, but this might take time. If you recall we didnt nerf artillery we simply changed how they are used in the game
You are welcome to your 'opinions" of course, however it does sound like you have a touch of 'sour grapes'. We work very closely with the HOI community in terms of game balance issue and design. What you might consider is questionable is not shared across the player base. In anycase this is very ironic coming from someone who obviously enjoys playing BICE. Presumably its a case of you can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. In other words you might disagree, but we tend to go with what most people want...

The broad aim for BICE in HOI IV is to set up historcial immersion. As we develop this player exploits will occur and we will attempt to fix them based on feedback. Obviously this can take time in certain situations. So you are basically incorrect if you think development time has nothing to do with balance issues To put it simply. It does. I would know.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

... You put to much emphasis that Volksgrenadier is militia and contain mainly elderly and children. ... Volksgrenadier were basically a second rate formation based on all sorts of people and formed around a cadre of veterans as you describe correctly. But, the tiny difference between regular german infantry division and volksgrenadier division lies mostly with the infantry organization, equipment and training.

Other than this (smaller number of battalions in division), Volksgrenadier had the same organic support assets as light howitzer and light AT guns in the infantry regiments.

... same artillery organization with 4 artillery battalions, three (3) light artillery and one (1) medium artillery (mostly 150m howitzer).

... Equipment and training. Volksgrenadier were mostly outfitted with obsolete and/or foreign equipment which was leftovers.

... but a standing infantry formation non the less and used numerous times in defensive battles and offensives.

... volksgrenadier as these are still an infantry formation and is well represented in game as potential coastal defense, garrisons, reinforcements, followup etc etc.

... That there were deviation from what was decided on a paper did of course happen.

Tried to summarize the points you made above. We both agree in general, its just some of the details we differ on.

I didn't mean to imply that all VG divisions are mainly elderly and children. And we both agree that they were formed from whatever manpower was available. So a new VG division could be formed from just the veterans from shattered regular infantry divisions. But its 1944, so those veterans are probably battle fatigued. But more likely it's whatever rear area guys who had avoided all the previous comb outs and partially trained rear area units. Either way, you can't equate them to the manpower drawn in earlier years. Militia is the best term I can come up with.

So even with the same exact equipment as a 1st wave 1941 division, they are not going have the same combat power.

And they won't have that equipment. Again, 1944. Most of my combat power is coming from artillery, but the VG division is making do with whatever artillery pieces they can find. So even though the TOE says 48 artillery pieces, I doubt they had anything like that and would consider themselves lucky if they had 24 pieces.

Roughly 80 VG divisions were formed from a Barbarossa peak of 150 Infantry/Static divisions (170 if you include the Luft Field divisions). Broken men, leftover weapons. It's a testimony to their fighting skills that they performed as well as the did.

So in game terms and as you stated, the generic VG division should be second rate, not something I would consider a "standing infantry formation". Hence militia.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

German Army and SS at Barbarossa (June 1941)

Decided to summarize the numbers in a posting, since the above totals are by unit type. I consider Barbarossa the high point of the German Army. You can determine the German units with reasonable accuracy, something that cannot be said for the later years in the war. This also reflects the limits of German industry, even with the occupied territories.

The "+ number" are Waffen SS units (see the detail provided above).

That's a total of 212 divisions. 173 Infantry types, 39 mobile types.

Happy Holidays to everyone.

 

[jayz806]

Shaka, thanks a million for all your work. I know historical divisions aren't for many players (for many reasons), but I enjoy the flavor you provide here. Genuinely can't wait to place historical divisions in the new (partial) chain of command system in Waking the Tiger.

 

[GPounda]

Great stuff - thank you. @Shaka of Carthage

Has any of this changed since the Great Nerf of "Waking the Tiger?" or the latest mod MtG??

 

[Zauberelefant]

Great stuff - thank you. @Shaka of Carthage

Has any of this changed since the Great Nerf of "Waking the Tiger?" or the latest mod MtG??

How so?

 

[RELee]

Bravo, Shaka! I finally got around to reading this thread for true comprehension. I can't double check any of your numbers, but the basic history stated here match up with my own readings on the subject. It's one of the best parts of HOI4 that we can attempt to recreate the historical divisions used by the various combatants.

But I'm a hopeless grognard from the 70's and probably don't fit in with most of the crowd here any more.

That's okay. I like being different.

Edit: I should have said that I can't double check the actual numbers until I get home and refresh my memory with my reference library I've accumulated over the years. The book are currently scattered all over the floor since my last bookcase broke under the strain.

 

[ThaHoward]

How so?

With MtG we now have motorized AT, arty and AA. That may change up the composition of motorized infantry, Grossdeutschland, Panzer Divisions etc.

 

[Zauberelefant]

With MtG we now have motorized AT, arty and AA. That may change up the composition of motorized infantry, Grossdeutschland, Panzer Divisions etc.

Don't. It just does not work modelling historical divisions with the hoi4 system.

You end Up with either wrong Equipment count, wrong head count, wrong number of units or very poorly performing designs. Non of this satisfies my inner bean counter.

Since the AI will spam as many Units as it can, you cannot afford a historical OOB, since AI does not give a damn about historical numbers.

Missing Independent units is another pain.

I dropped historical division design and took a "plausible If reality was hoi4" approach.

My 1939 Inf division as Germany had 3*4 Inf battalions, 1AA, 1AT, 2ART, Eng, Rec, Hos, Sig

Panzer divisions end Up with 8Larm/marm mixed, 5 mot/MEC mixed, 2 mot ART and 1 AA/AT mot each. Same support as above plus maintenance.

My life has improved so much!

 

[ThaHoward]

Don't. It just does not work modelling historical divisions with the hoi4 system.

You end Up with either wrong Equipment count, wrong head count, wrong number of units or very poorly performing designs. Non of this satisfies my inner bean counter.

Since the AI will spam as many Units as it can, you cannot afford a historical OOB, since AI does not give a damn about historical numbers.

Missing Independent units is another pain.

I dropped historical division design and took a "plausible If reality was hoi4" approach.

My 1939 Inf division as Germany had 3*4 Inf battalions, 1AA, 1AT, 2ART, Eng, Rec, Hos, Sig

Panzer divisions end Up with 8Larm/marm mixed, 5 mot/MEC mixed, 2 mot ART and 1 AA/AT mot each. Same support as above plus maintenance.

My life has improved so much!

Okay? This is for historical divisions not optimal gameplay divisions. OP says it himself that historical divisions are not optimal in this game, but still one can visit this thread if one want historical divisions. Moreover OP have said you can't get historical divisions as mot. arty etc. is missing.

We're adressing this topic, that is how to get as historical divisions as possible in the game. I am frankly not interested in being told "Don't" or the limitations of historical divisions in regards to gameplay, I and others are fully aware of that.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Okay? This is for historical divisions not optimal gameplay divisions. OP says it himself that historical divisions are not optimal in this game, but still one can visit this thread if one want historical divisions. Moreover OP have said you can't get historical divisions as mot. arty etc. is missing.

We're adressing this topic, that is how to get as historical divisions as possible in the game. I am frankly not interested in being told "Don't" or the limitations of historical divisions in regards to gameplay, I and others are fully aware of that.

Read my first two sentences again. There is no satisfactory historical setup, because you end Up with wrong manpower, wrong Equipment numbers or wrong number of divisions.
It is not possible to create a German infantry division with this system.
You end Up with too many or too few artillery barrels, too few men, or wrong organization like two artillery battalions instead of three.

Hence my suggestion to skip bean counting and move forwards to a "in the spirit of" attitude.

If you feel I don't understand the point of this thread, I can only say: been there, done that, not worth my time, was no fun.

And for all you guys need, Wikipedia gives enough info to Go and try to create "historical divisions".

 

[RELee]

Let's not derail the thread with an argument over the different ways players can choose to play their game.

 

[GPounda]

Don't. It just does not work modelling historical divisions with the hoi4 system.

did you even read the OP? This has nothing to do with "is it realistic," and everything to do with "is it plausible."

This entire topic is about HOW one would likely convert an historical division into an HOI-4 one. It is not about bean counting. . .

 

[Riekopo]

This thread is very useful for roleplayers. Can you post a list of every historical Division you've made? Do you have any for other countries? I think your mod might need to be updated. I'm currently playing Italy.

 

[Question]

One thing I find funny is that infantry is useless for attacking whereas in ww2 they were used to attack all the time...your 9x inf division with supporting artillery/etc just wouldnt work ingame and you would have a lot more artillery at least (since artillery seems to much cheaper ingame than IRL, countries like denmark only had a dozen or less artillery pieces IRL if im not wrong).

 

[Zauberelefant]

did you even read the OP? This has nothing to do with "is it realistic," and everything to do with "is it plausible."

This entire topic is about HOW one would likely convert an historical division into an HOI-4 one. It is not about bean counting. . .

Tell you what, with the game's restrictions, you might as well build 7/2 divisions and call it a day.
If historicity is the objective, you cannot achieve a German Infanterie Division, full Stop.
If you want something of a middle ground, 9inf, 3 Art, 2 AT, 1 AA and full Support will get you as close as possible, but you will have too many arty barrels, ~6000 men less than actually deployed, too much AA, weird Organisation (half the AT assets were organic to the infantry Regiments).

For tanks, a 1939 Panzer Division in hoi4 (4 larm, 3 mot, 3 mot Art, 3 mot AT, mot AA) is severely understaffed and underequipped. Short 60-100 light tanks, 4000 men, and it's pretty nigh useless as stats are too low to achieve breakthroughs in the west.

So, there is the question: historical Organization or historical Performance?

 

[Zauberelefant]

One thing I find funny is that infantry is useless for attacking whereas in ww2 they were used to attack all the time...your 9x inf division with supporting artillery/etc just wouldnt work ingame and you would have a lot more artillery at least (since artillery seems to much cheaper ingame than IRL, countries like denmark only had a dozen or less artillery pieces IRL if im not wrong).

I think this is down to the lack of corps and army Level assets.

Infantry offensives would be supported by corps and army artillery, armoured units (heavy Tank brigades, assault gun Units, Tank destroyers), all which would make the difference If they were in a template instead (like 1x HARM, 1xTD, 5xART in a 9/2 inf Division. Would result in a 42 width, armoured assault Division.)

I feel that a corps mechanic is needed, were you just fill up a template with Equipment to receive bonus effects for a limited number of divisions.
Unfortunately, to reduce micro, the AI would have to actually attach those assets...

 

[goodcigar]

MHV video from 2016 say German Infantry Division is slightly different. I have some question about what you mean:

In 1942, twenty (20) Luftwaffe Field Divisions were formed.

How Luftwaffe Division built?

Early ('36 - '40) German Panzer Division
3 to 4 x Light Armor Battalions
2 to 3 x Motorized Inf Battalions
SP AntiTank Battalion

What does 3 to 4 x mean? What does 2 to 3 x mean?
What kind of SP Anti-Tank Battalion? Light, Medium, Heavy? Or is it Motorized?

8 x Cavalry or Motorized Battalions (should be Mech Cavalry, but we have no such unit)

What is Mech Cav?

German Panzer Division 1941
2 x Medium Armor Battalions (or 3 x Light Armor Battalions)
1 x Mechanized Inf Battalion
3 x Motorized Inf Battalions
1 x Motorized Inf Battalion (actually a Motorcycle Battalion, but Motorized works)
SP Anti-Air Battalion
SP Artillery Battalion
SP Tank Destroyer Battalion (optional)
Armored Engineer Battalion (see below)

Is 1941 German Panzer Division Medium Tank or Light Tank?
Is Motorcycle a Support/Recon Company?
What kind of SP Anti-Air, Artillery, Tank Destoyer - Light, Medium, or Heavy? Or is it Motorized?