Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.684
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
There are certain limitations the base game has in regards to historical units. The biggest one being the Artillery unit has 36 guns and 500 manpower (ideally a battalion should be 12 guns and 650 manpower). The others being the unit sizes. The below is based on those constraints.

German Infantry Division
9 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Artillery Battalion
1 x AntiTank Battalion
1 x AntiAir Battalion (attached)
Support units
Engineer
Recon
Artillery
Signal
Field Hospital

Note that the AntiAir Battalion is usually Luftwaffe, not Army. German infantry divisions were raised by "waves". While ideally, every infantry division should be equivalent to a 1st wave, lack of equipment dictated otherwise.

Pre-1939, there were thirty-five (35) infantry divisions.

By 1939, an additional fifty-one (51) infantry divisions and three (3) mountain divisions were formed. They were not fully equipped (ie were wave 2, wave 3 and wave 4 divisions). In game terms it would be like having the above infantry divisions deployed before being fully trained. Or creating divisions that don't have all of the above units. Sixteen (16) of those fifty-one (51) were used for Poland. Thirty (30) of those fifty-one (51) were fully equipped by Barbarossa (June '41).

An additional eleven (11) divisions were raised in 1939, but there were second rate divisions (wave 5, wave 6). In game terms, they should be represented as "static" divisions.

In 1940, a increase of four (4) infantry divisions and three (3) mountain divisions. Occurred by having twenty (20) of the existing infantry divisions converted to Panzer, Motorized or Security divisions or disbanded and raising another twenty-four (24).

Late 1940, another sixteen (16) infantry divisions were raised (wave 11, wave 12), but strained the ability of Germany to fully equip them. Four (4) Jager divisions were raised (basically a light mountain division). I'll address those in a separate posting for Mountain divisions. And finally another seventeen (17) "static" divisions (wave 13, wave 14).

Typical HoI4 German Static Division
6 x Infantry Battalions (obsolete or captured equipment)
1 x Artillery Battalion (obsolete or captured equipment)
Support units
Engineer
Artillery (if used, remove Artillery Bn)

These static divisions were meant to be occupation troops, not front line combat troops. Should also be immobile, but that isn't something we can easily represent in the game.

In 1941, a further four (4) infantry divisions were disbanded or converted into security divisions. An additional fifteen (15) static divisions and eleven (11) security divisions were raised

Typical HoI4 German Security "Division"
3 x Infantry Battalions
3 x Militia Battalions (not a unit in the base game, but want to show these six (6) battalions are sub-par).
Support units
Military Police

In game terms, probably more accurate to use three (3) to six (6) cavalry battalions for the Security Division.

This is what Germany entered Barbarossa with.
Infantry Divisions ....... 102
Static Divisions ............ 43
Security "Divisions" ...... 11
Mtn/Jager Divisions ..... 10

Once Barbarossa started, things became much less clearer. How the German Army handles its East Front losses and whether or not it should be able to raise new divisions is another discussion. But there are two (2) significant events.

In 1942, twenty (20) Luftwaffe Field Divisions were formed. Manpower came from the Luftwaffe (mainly the Flak units) and as such, suffered from a lack of competent cadre (ie divisions were equivalent to "green").

In 1944, the German Infantry division was reduced to six (6) Infantry battalions. Some would argue that the support engineer unit should be removed as well.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:

GSP Jr

Colonel
13 Badges
Apr 27, 2017
1.042
739
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
Great work. One question - where would Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm division fit in?
And not to be greedy, but German armor divisions also.
Love your mod too.
 

Ringwraith_JP

First Lieutenant
65 Badges
Jul 5, 2007
259
184
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Great work. One question - where would Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm division fit in?
And not to be greedy, but German armor divisions also.
Love your mod too.
From the book Slaughterhouse: The Handbook of the Eastern Front.
 

Attachments

  • panzerdivision.jpg
    panzerdivision.jpg
    996,6 KB · Views: 2.469
  • volksgrenadier.jpg
    volksgrenadier.jpg
    846,6 KB · Views: 1.881
  • 3
Reactions:

GSP Jr

Colonel
13 Badges
Apr 27, 2017
1.042
739
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Ringwraith_JP

First Lieutenant
65 Badges
Jul 5, 2007
259
184
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
Thanks again. Looks like a new book for my bookshelf too.
It's a very good book if you're looking for raw information like that. It has those diagrams for pretty much every division type in the East Front (including the minors like Romania) and a section devoted to telling who was commanding what and when.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Broletariat90

Lt. General
44 Badges
Jul 6, 2013
1.270
1.223
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I follow this,
Usually go with the 1940 layout for Germany.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.684
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
Great work. One question - where would Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm division fit in?
And not to be greedy, but German armor divisions also.
Love your mod too.

Thank you for the kind words about Authentic Units - Manpower.

Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm. Please remember what I am about to say is simply my opinion.

The base game does not properly handle what Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm represent. Don't bother with them in the base game.

The Volksgrenadier divisions were built around a cadre of veterans and whatever they could find to flesh out the unit, including old farts and children (ie geriatrics and adolescents). So while you could use the Infantry division layout with six (6) infantry battalions, there is no unit to represent the below standard manpower.

I've given this some thought for a future mod, but only as design concepts. If someone takes "scrapping the barrel" conscription, that would remove the ability for them to build any infantry battalions. In their place, they would have a "militia" (for lack of a better name) battalion. New divisions could be built, but only using militia battalions, as you don't have the ability to build infantry battalions anymore. You could still add Artillery, AntiTank, etc. Those new units would be your Volksgrenadier divisions.

Volkssturm were battalion level units. I'd roll them into the "militia" unit grouping above. Would like to have some sort of event(s) generate Volkssturm units for defense of your core territories. I've seen Kaiserreich do that in France.

Will get to the other German units (including the Panzers) soon.
 

FrancescoT

Field Marshal
Demi Moderator
57 Badges
Aug 8, 2009
7.972
789
43
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Baron"
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • PDXCon 2019 "Baron"
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
@SlavicAmerican direct link to an external site with a forum is not allowed. Please remove it from your post asap or I'll have to remove it.
 

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.684
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
Base game limitations in regards to historical units. There are no motorized units. You have the standard units (what I call towed) that move at infantry speed, then the Self Propelled versions, that move at armor speeds. As with the ground units, the Artillery unit has 36 guns and 500 manpower (ideally a battalion should be 12 guns and 650 manpower). And the unit sizes should be adjusted. The below is based on those constraints.

Early ('36 - '40) German Panzer Division
3 to 4 x Light Armor Battalions
2 to 3 x Motorized Inf Battalions
SP AntiTank Battalion

Support units

Engineer
Recon
Artillery
Signal
Field Hospital
Anti-Aircraft (in place of Signal or Field Hospital or just leave off)

Note that the Support Anti-Aircraft unit is usually Luftwaffe, not Army.

In the early years, there was no standard organization. The division leaders were more or less free to experiment with different groupings and try to cope with the equipment shortages. Hence the range in Light Armor and Motorized Infantry units.

In 1935 there were three (3) Panzer divisions.
In 1937, one (1) Light Division was created (see below).
In 1938, two (2) Panzer divisions and three (3) Light Divisions were added.
In 1939, after Poland, four (4) Light Divisions were converted to Panzer Divisions.
In 1940, the tenth (10th) Panzer division was raised.

The Light (leichte) Divisions were raised before the panzer divisions had proven themselves in combat. The cavalry branch, with hundreds of years of tradition behind it, were not happy with the armor advocates. They were able to get the Light Divisions created. Though they performed well in Poland, they were relatively unwieldy and were less effective than the panzer divisions. They got converted. There was a 5th Light Division formed in late '40 from elements of existing Panzer divisions, becoming the 21st Panzer Division. Was the start of the Afrika Korp.

German Light (leichte) Division
1 x Light Armor Battalion
8 x Cavalry or Motorized Battalions (should be Mech Cavalry, but we have no such unit)

Support units

Engineer
Recon
Artillery
Signal
Anti-Tank

While there were ten (10) Panzer divisions before France, none of them were organized the same. And because German industry was not able to produce enough front line combat tanks to equip the divisions, they ended up using what they had (in game terms, those 1934 tanks). Better tanks were obtained from Czechoslovakia (those 1936 tanks). The end result was that six (6) Panzer divisions had four (4) Light Armor battalions and four (4) Panzer divisions (former Light Divisions) had two (2) Light Armor battalions.

After France, it was accepted that the Panzer divisions were tank heavy (something the Western Allies took until 1943 to realize). The divisions were reorganized to contain less tanks, but more of them medium tanks (Germany was still unable to build enough medium tanks to equip all the Panzer divisions). The components of seven (7) Motorized/Infantry divisions were converted into Panzer Divisions along with raising four (4) new Panzer Regiments (in game terms, convert existing divisions). While this resulted in twenty (20) Panzer divisions, only seventeen (17) of them were used for Barbarossa.

German Panzer Division 1941
2 x Medium Armor Battalions (or 3 x Light Armor Battalions)
1 x Mechanized Inf Battalion
3 x Motorized Inf Battalions
1 x Motorized Inf Battalion (actually a Motorcycle Battalion, but Motorized works)
SP Anti-Air Battalion
SP Artillery Battalion
SP Tank Destroyer Battalion (optional)
Armored Engineer Battalion (see below)

Support units

Engineer
Recon
Artillery
Signal
Maint
Field Hospital (optional)

There were not enough medium tanks, so six (6) Panzer divisions had Czech Light Tanks instead.

The SP Tank Destroyer is really a Mixed Flak Battalion (with 88mm Flak 18/36). Luftwaffe, not Army.

The Germans had Combat Engineers distributed throughout all of the Infantry type battalions (Mechanized, Motorized and Motorcycle) in heavy weapons companies. They were especially trained and equipped for close assault and close combat to a much higher level than their Western Allied or Soviet counterparts. In other words, there primary role was not battlefield construction. There is no equivalent unit in HoI4, nor can we add a second Engineer support unit. I've noted it here because it is very important and maybe others can come up with some creative way of including them.

You'll notice there are six (6) support units listed, while we can only have five (5). That is why the Field Hospital is optional. Suggestions on a better solution?

There were changes made after Barbarossa. But I feel it is better for the player to make his own changes based on his experiences after he has built the historical "ideal" German Army.

The above is the premier combat formation up to 1943. Even at 30% of its combat strength (including only 50 or so operational tanks), it was still able to conduct major offensive operations. That is the eventual goal I have for the historical mod I am planning.


PS...
I've already drawn conclusions based on the information I have. In game terms, I believe the above twenty-one (21) Panzer divisions are the limit Germany should have (not including Waffen SS and special units). But figured I should show the information and let others draw their own conclusions.

21st Panzer Division (see Light Division above) was formed in Aug 1941. Afrika Korp.
Late 41 (Sep - Nov), the 22nd, 23rd and 24th Panzer divisions were formed. The first two were formed with foreign or obsolete equipment. 24th was the converted 1st Cavalry Division. 23rd was reequipped with German tanks in 1942.

In 1942, the Grossdeutschland (mot) division was formed. Became a PanzerGrenadier division in May 43. Organized and equipped like a Panzer division, though it was never officially called one. They should be treated as an elite unit.

Also in 1942, the 25th, 26th and 27th Panzer divisions were created. The 25th was understrength until Aug '43 (was intended for possible invasion of Sweden). The 26th was converted from the 23rd Inf Division. The 27th never reached full strength, though its smaller units were pieced out.

In Jun 43, the Hermann Goring Panzer Division was formed. Initially created as a Motorized Inf Division. Note this was a Luftwaffe unit, built with Luftwaffe resources. A second one was created in 1944. They are not elite units.

In Oct 43, there was a Norwegen Panzer Division. It never reached division strength and was eventually cannabilized.

There were named Panzer Divisions, but all were created from the remnants of existing units or purpose created from existing units for a specific task.

HoI4 sends replacements to existing units in an attempt to keep them at full strength. The realities of the Eastern Front dictated otherwise. So other than special events creating some of the above units, I don't believe Germany should be able to have anything beyond those first twenty-one (21) Panzer divisions.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Uniform764

Captain
99 Badges
Oct 3, 2011
380
319
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion
  • Sengoku
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
It makes me sad how far the 7/2 infantry and 40 width tank/space marine divisions stray from a vaguely accurate historical division. The min/maxing available in the division designer is just silly.

Then again I'm supposed to believe half the countries in Europe did away with artillery in the interwar years and need to conduct exercises to remember it might be a sensible addition.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:

Kamakaze Panda

Sergeant
72 Badges
Jul 20, 2011
97
20
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
It makes me sad how far the 7/2 infantry and 40 width tank/space marine divisions stray from a vaguely accurate historical division. The min/maxing available in the division designer is just silly.

Then again I'm supposed to believe half the countries in Europe did away with artillery in the interwar years and need to conduct exercises to remember it might be a sensible addition.

Agreed, a bit of inaccuracy for the sake of simplicity and gameplay is one thing, but a lack of even artillery in basic infantry divisions at the start of the game is baffling.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.684
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
It makes me sad how far the 7/2 infantry and 40 width tank/space marine divisions stray from a vaguely accurate historical division. The min/maxing available in the division designer is just silly.

It's a WWII sandbox game. Paradox has already stated that if we want a historical WWII game, it is up to the modders to create one. They've given us some of the tools.

For everyone, please note that I have edited the posting about Panzer divisions to show the one's created beyond Barbarossa.
 

Comrade_Bobinski

Corporal
74 Badges
Mar 9, 2016
49
83
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
Could you do the HOI4 TOE equivalent of some famous panzer division ? Like the Grossdeutschland or the panzer Lehr ?
Also, the base template of a pzgrenadier division ?
I really like what you are doing in this thread so thank you for all this informations !
 

wesleytj

General
31 Badges
Apr 2, 2003
2.176
22
mama.indstate.edu
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron: The Card Game
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
Could you do the HOI4 TOE equivalent of some famous panzer division ? Like the Grossdeutschland or the panzer Lehr ?
Also, the base template of a pzgrenadier division ?
I really like what you are doing in this thread so thank you for all this informations !

Panzergrenadiers would mostly be Mot/Mech and Tank Destroyers, plus support.
 

Shaka of Carthage

General
12 Badges
Sep 7, 2017
2.095
1.684
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II
Could you do the HOI4 TOE equivalent of some famous panzer division ? Like the Grossdeutschland or the panzer Lehr ? Also, the base template of a pzgrenadier division ?
I really like what you are doing in this thread so thank you for all this informations !

I'll consider the Panzer Lehr for a future posting. I would like to finish the standard stuff first (for Germany).

Grossdeutschland will probably get another mention when I do the Motorized Divisions, which will also address your request for a PzGrenadier template.

Credit for this thread should be given to the person who asked for the Historical US divisions and another poster who wanted the other nations info. More work than I intended when I responded to the Historical US thread request. I'm glad you find the information useful. Thanks.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Caranorn

ministerialis
48 Badges
Jun 23, 2002
971
0
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
I have to somewhat disagree on some statements here.

The divisions of the 1st through 4th (39, 16, 20 and 14 divisions respectively) waves had all existed on paper prior to september 1939. The second wave as Reserve divisions, the third iirc as Landwehr, the fourth I'd have to look up. Also their composition varied relatively little, certainly not enough to warrant a separate template in HOI IV terms. The main difference was the composition of conscripts, 1st wave with recently trained troops, other waves with older conscripts, some of the waves with a large number of entirely untrained cosncripts (classes that never had to serve in the army during the interwar years) In addition to these 4 waves of infantry there were border forvces which were converted to infantry between september 39 and may 40. The 1st through 3rd Mountain divisions had existed since the Anschluss.

The 10th Panzer division existed in 1939 though it was still in formation nd it's components served under other formations in Poland. The Leichte divisions should not be cavalry in HOI IV terms, these units were fully mechanized (largely motor in HOI IV terms).

Very few static (bodenständige) divisions existed in the early years of the war (some were formed in late 39 early 40 only to be disbanded again after the unexpected rapid fall of France (some newly formed infantry divisions were likewise disbanded). Most such units wertre formed as garrison units in the West. But even those divisions were not entirely immobile, rather they lacked sufficient transportation to move all components at the same time. In 1944 most such units were able to rapidly form a Kampfgruppe of about a third of their strength for mobile operations while the remaining two thirds had to wait for reinforcements before they could move out of their deployment areas.

Ah yes, Volksgrenadier (and Grenadier before them) divisions. These should in no way be considered militia. Originally the difference between infantry and grenadier divisions was in name only. In game terms it's mostly a matter of naming and no more. When old infantry divisions were destroyed and reformed or just reorganised in 1944/45 they'd automatically be renamed into Volksgrenadier. Obviously these units were on average (only on average, some of these were quite good usually depending on the cadre they were formed around) of lower quality than divisions in 1941.

By the way, the 1944 divisions usually had a Jäger battalion, essentially a 7th infantry battalion which also had to fulfill a recon role. In addition to that many divisions had Ost (often former Soviet POW pressed into German service) battalions meaning that in practice divisions in the West had a nominal 9-10 infantry battalions just like their Eastern colleagues. The difference was again in quality (obviously the Ost battalions usually were very unmotivated to fight the Western Allies), mobility and equipment.

To note, a lot of foreign equipment was used by thye German Army from 39 onwards. Starting with Czech and Austrian equipment in 39, adding Polish ones in 40, followed by French, Belgian, Dutch and British equipment and as of 41 a lot of Soviet equipment. On average that equipment was inferior to it's German counterparts (obviously not in HOI IV vanilla terms) but still did good service. Usually equipment dotations were determined by the infantry divisions' waves.

P.S.: Probably the ultimate source for formation and organisation of German troops is Georg Tessin's series of "Verbände und Truppen der Deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945" books.

External Links Removed - Secret Master

P.P.S.: Some of these matters are by the way already covered in the Black Ice mod for HOI IV...
 
Last edited by a moderator: