Historical Determinism

[unmerged(25936)]

What lack?

All the major historical events from hoi2 are now in.

Except you can now SEE the triggers for them and decide whenever you want to trigger them when they are possible.

(And the AI always does them as soon as they are possible)

If you guys could simply go into more detail I would be most appreciative and consider my initial post answered. I don't find this "ethical" question about ahistoric vs historic to be entertaining.

Maybe if I list this in the form of specific questions

1 - Assuming I ran the HOI equivalent of a "hands off game", how likely is it it'll proceed historically up to, say, the fall of France? Which areas are most likely to go a-historic and why?

2 - Give me some examples of conditions that can drastically alter AI choices. For instance, does the US building significant land division prior to July 1941 cause Germany to reconsider Barbarossa? Or would that only happen if I pursued and aggressive diplomacy towards Germany and allied GB prior to Barbarossa (like in the HoI2 event)?

3 - How easy is it to edit this all?

 

[DeathDemon]

Now thats the sort of answer that proves me wrong. Not what others are suggesting. In this case, I'd rather have a reactive AI then historicalism. Its just a shame for those who want to see a more historical game. I'm sure something along history will play out, I was merely commenting there's nothing wrong with playing historically.

How can you call it a historical game when you're producing completely different things than the country you're playing was producing in real life? That's not playing historical. That's semi-cheating because of a non-responsive AI.

There is also the problem that when the AI plays 'historical' all the time, you will end up with unfair bonuses. For example, since you KNOW the USSR will not attack you before June 22 1941, you do not need to deploy any forces on the border with the USSR, giving you an ahistorical number of divisions to use.

Or, since we're arguing about diplomacy in the 1936 scenario:
since you KNOW the French AI won't respond when you re-militarize the Rhineland, you can just go ahead and do it, while in real life there was a lot of fear in the OKW of a French armed intervention.
Same goes for Anschluss, Munich and the incorporation of Bohemia-Moravia.

 

[unmerged(31881)]

In theory, those would be addressed by incorporating some overall or local checks for the number of divisions/air wings. e.g. if a major disbands its forces yet still opts for aggressive diplomacy...

(The OKW may have been in fear, btw, but Hitler had recieved intelligence that there would be no armed intervention in response. Needless to say, he didn't share this with anybody so that he could credit his genius instead of his intel source.)

 

[Alexander Seil]

What lack?

All the major historical events from hoi2 are now in.

Except you can now SEE the triggers for them and decide whenever you want to trigger them when they are possible.

(And the AI always does them as soon as they are possible)

Does this include the AI evaluating the geopolitical consequences of the action? Or will it walk into a war unprepared just because it can, theoretically, trigger the event?! :wacko:

I think common sense should prevail here. What if I am playing as France and behave belligerently towards Germany, drag Central European countries into the Allies, etc.? Will Germany still walk into this trap in 1939 just because it can?

I don't mind concessions to the determinists - but not this one. Please.

 

[Garak]

Would it be possible for us to remove all of the events, in there current form from our game, and replace them with events that take place on the historic date?

If you want to know more about what is and is not possible in terms of modding, why not go look at the modding forums for EUIII and Rome? I mean, this is the third game now to use this engine. A lot of this stuff is kind of basic to the engine. In EUIII, for example, if I want to add Austria as a possible former of Germany, I can make that change in literally less than one minute. And I know absolutely zero about programming or coding. If I want to remove an event, it's as simple as dragging the relevant text file out of its folder, or simply deleting a section of text. I can remove a country from the game by adding a # next to its name in the Common folder. It really doesn't get much easier than that to mod out anything you don't care for. Again, I'd recomend looking into the mod forums for the other two games which use this engine, to get an idea of what will likely be possible.

 

[Neofusion]

If I want to remove an event, it's as simple as dragging the relevant text file out of its folder, or simply deleting a section of text. I can remove a country from the game by adding a # next to its name in the Common folder. It really doesn't get much easier than that to mod out anything you don't care for.

As long as Decisions will be that easy to add/remove/alter I'll be happy.

It will be interesting to see how the AI handles decisions where previous games presented them as events with 3 or 4 options.

 

[Jace]

Well i am sure mods will make the game a bit easier to follow "historic" pre war diplomacy, I would just wait tell mods such as CORE come out.Paradox makes great games but what gives them massive replayablity is their loving support for community mods I am looking forward to some unexpected turn of events however so maybe Japan will help me for once in my fight against the SU .

PS on a side note i cant remember but i think in EU3 you could tweak the decision triggers to make one of them dates and what not but again that's something we will have to wait and see.

 

[Nikolai II]

1 - Assuming I ran the HOI equivalent of a "hands off game", how likely is it it'll proceed historically up to, say, the fall of France? Which areas are most likely to go a-historic and why?

Unlikely.

1. Dates for events like Militarization of the Rhineland or Anschlüss of Austria will probably differ by at least a couple of weeks in either direction.

2. Sino-Japanese war will have been raging for years, pitting AI vs AI and possibly changing the entire dynamic of Asia.

But this is just me guessing - you'll get a better answer in about a week

 

[Erich83]

than why have the game start in 36?

 

[skibear]

I am definately one in the 'like ww2 to run fairly historically' camp, but fully appreciate that plenty would want the randomness. I always hated it when Spain joined the axis, or paying the '36 scenario for hours as UK carefully building up the RN only to roll five years on with no war in sight. But I can see how the allies preparing better than historically for war might convince Germany not to chance war.
I am sure many people like the 36 and 38 scenarios to mold their nation and make it there own, but still want to have the war start as expected. Would it be possible to have a tickbox option in the start screen 'Historical events' i.e. whenever presented then the AI always chooses that event. Being able to toggle event randomness, or even have a slider that influenced the chance of historical events happening from 'very likely historical' to 'completely even odds' might help please both the random and historical camps. Maybe even the slider could make it more likely not to choice the historical event to really spice it up for the 'what if players'. Even with this then I am sure that plenty of scope for paths to diverge. I like the randomness for of the game, but it would be nice to have the option to more or less guarantee that if the player is in the mood to sit down and role-play if he/she can recreate the historical path, do Barbarossa / D-Day on time etc... then you can play it without too many political suprises interferring with a good military game.

 

[Erich83]

Multi player is the only way to go--each player try to do better than RL, best way to go

 

[Baneslave]

than why have the game start in 36?

Because all people don't care about historical determinism?

 

[Erich83]

Because all people don't care about historical determinism?

Then click on 39

 

[Baneslave]

Then click on 39

So, people who don't care about historical determinism should be locked to historical determinism by choosing later date...? Why?

Players might also want to choose differently and that is why the 1936 scenario is there.

 

[Erich83]

So, people who don't care about historical determinism should be locked to historical determinism by choosing later date...? Why?

Players might also want to choose differently and that is why the 1936 scenario is there.

then click on 36

 

[onkeljonas]

That really isn't your problem nor is discussing the why's of it the point of this thread.

[...] The rest is unasked for.

Get a grip dude... you don't own the thread.

Prior to that, however, just as an example, if I am the US doing nothing but building up my navy and industry and being isolationist in diplomacy, I see no reason to not expect Germany to act like Hitlers Germany, Japan to aggressively pursue a Chinese policy, and Great Britain to appease.

When you say 'act like Hitler', do you mean the exact same decisions on the exact same dates? Or the same general strategy in the same general period?

As I understand it, HOI3 leans more towards the second type of historical outcome. Whatever your preference, I think you'll have to contend with a certain amount of deviation from history. HOI was always a game first, historically acurate second.

 

[Erich83]

no point in playing if it goes historically

 

[Baneslave]

no point in playing if it goes historically

Even if world events happen in the same way all the times, nations can do different things, ie Germany might go with powerful surface fleet or Soviet Union can evade the Purges etc.

 

[skibear]

no point in playing if it goes historically

But just because the political events are locked to go historically, doesnt mean that the war plays out historically. Thats why I think would be nice to have the option (but not the obligation) to toggle a button to lock in historical events if the player wants. Then you can focus on building, researching and eventually fighting without fear that the war doesnt happen. For example even if you pick 1939 then there is still a chance that Italy doesnt join the axis (mixed emotions on that for the axis and the allies i'm sure ) But sometimes, though not every game, then be nice to have the option to know you are fighting close to WW2 rather than being sidetracked by some political variation that you are not in the mood for.
However i am fully prepared to accept we are fretting about this without having played the game yet so I am not too worried. Just wanted to throw it out there that a historical event only toggle might please everybody.

 

[Jazumir]

A ´historical accuracy´-slider at game-setup might actually BE a good idea. At the lowest, there is a (say) 50/50 chance for ´anschluss´ et al. and at the highest, everything is bound to happen historically. Would suit everyones tastes if it was feasable and done...