• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

StephenT

OT iconoclast
89 Badges
Mar 10, 2001
8.721
317
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities in Motion
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
The Norman conquest meant that for 300 years English virtually ceased to be a written language, with both literature and administrative documents being written in French or Latin. So we simply have no idea how quickly it developed from Anglo Saxon into Early Modern English. However, what little evidence there is seems to put the change later rather than earlier.

According to Wikipedia's article on Middle English, the period 1100-1300 saw English retain the vocabulary of Old English almost intact, but simplifying the grammar significantly. Old English was an inflected language with lots of case endings, for instance (a dative case, a locative case, etc) but these were abandoned and replaced by prepositions and word order instead.

Then in 1300-1400 - the time when the English aristocracy were starting to speak English instead of French - the change became much more dramatic, with a lot of Old English vocabulary being dropped and French or Latin loan-words coming into the language instead. Chaucer wrote in Middle English (around 1380) but it's much easier for modern English-speakers to understand his work than it would be to understand something written just a hundred years earlier.
 

Konstantinos XV

Naive Enthusiast
70 Badges
Jun 13, 2011
716
24
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Surviving Mars
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Knights of Honor
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • For The Glory
Neeeeu-no-no. I suggested ~300 years for mass conversion to introduced religion to the point of it becoming dominant and completely embraced by the masses. Somehow I imagine religion was the primary cultural marker in Anatolia.

"The extent to which gene flow from Central Asia has contributed to the current gene pool of the Turkish people, and the role of the 11th century invasion by Turkic peoples, has been the subject of several studies. These studies conclude that local Anatolian groups are the primary source of the present-day Turkish population. Anatolians do not significantly differ from other Mediterranean populations, indicating that while the Asian Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language and religion), the genetic significance is only weakly detectable".

As for languages, I find it hard to buy that the impact of literate people and elites on languages and dialects spoken by peasantry could be so swift. An example of France was provided to support this view. History also provides a lot of examples of failed "Germanization", "Russification", "Polonization" and so forth. Even if we suppose that the advent of nationalist sentiment in the 19th century saved a lot of to-be-nations, it still seems that 2 generations is far from enough (a lot of future nations were culturally subjugated for much longer periods prior to arrival of national ideas).
 

Yasko

Colonel
14 Badges
Feb 13, 2001
829
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I
The Turkish republic had to launch "Citizen, speak Turkish" campaign (starting in 1928 iirc) and "names and surnames law" somewhere in the 1930s. Here's another quote:

"Although the Armenian deportation of 1915 and the Greek-Turkish population exchange in 1924 had greatly homogenized the population within the borders of the new state, a considerable number of linguistic and religious minorities still lived in Turkey. According to the first population census of the Republic, conducted in 1927, Turkey's population of 13.6 million held around 2 million people for whom Turkish was not the main language."

1/3 of the current turkish population are descendents that surviveved and fled the massacres and ethnic cleanses in Balkans, Caucasia and Crimea while OE lost these provinces. So i am actually supriced that it was only 2 millons who could not talk the main language. Two big waves of immigrants, one right after tha Balkan Wars 1912 and one after the population exchange with Greece happened recently 1924. As an example, majority of greek muslims from Crete couldnt use a single word turkish, there were albanians, chechens, Kaukasian mosims, pomaks, Bosniaks and various others that had recently fled to Anatolia. So that "Citizen, speak Turkish" was mainly aimed at those groups and of course the Kurds...
 

unmerged(75409)

Field Marshal
Apr 30, 2007
7.727
101
As for languages, I find it hard to buy that the impact of literate people and elites on languages and dialects spoken by peasantry could be so swift. An example of France was provided to support this view. History also provides a lot of examples of failed "Germanization", "Russification", "Polonization" and so forth. Even if we suppose that the advent of nationalist sentiment in the 19th century saved a lot of to-be-nations, it still seems that 2 generations is far from enough (a lot of future nations were culturally subjugated for much longer periods prior to arrival of national ideas).

Anatolia under the Byzantines and Seljuks wasn't some feudal place where people were fixed to their land and forbidden from marrying any one from or moving to another place, was it? People moved around, went to town to trade and shop, joined passing armies to see the world, and so on... they weren't totally stationary like some medieval European peasant or a Caucasus mountain villager. For things like selling your merchandise in town you need to speak the town's language... also what happened to the monasteries? I can't imagine the Seljuks let them unmolested. Surely they would at least have confiscated part of their lands and handed them over to Sufi orders. What does that leave people for whom religion is a center of their life?

Lots of little drivers for cultural change...
 
Last edited:

Chamboozer

Field Marshal
63 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
5.013
2.747
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Magicka
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
Most monasteries were left alone under the Seljuks, but since they were cut off from the Byzantine church they lost a lot of their funding and decayed. Church land was sometimes turned into Waqf to fund the upkeep of mosques instead, even though the buildings themselves weren't touched.