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idontlikeforms said:
Often? I believe the problem with the issues raised, is that they either aren't happening at all or only seldomly.
I see this one the way Countsix does.
Yea, i agree we could up the %. I just don't think we're aiming as high as you are on everything.
idontlikeforms said:
Delhi forming the Mughals, which is how it usually happens, assuming it does in the AGCEEP, last time I checked, is pure fiction. It is not a historical event it is a fantasy one.
And I don't. Its not so key as you want people to think for the game engine. That Spain forms and surves is. That it becomes as powerful as it was historically isn't.
idontlikeforms said:
Mere troop stacks and forced DOWs aren't going to be enough. That Afghan/Hindustan border is very very different every game. The forced DOW often will not be against a neighboring country. Also those Indians don't just die once the Mughals DOW them. Very often their coalition is the stronger one, not the weaker one.[/quote[As to neighbor, that can be checked quite easily you should know with province event that fires if Mughuls are neighbors and if they aren't at war with whoever owns that province. The troop stacks given then to the Mughuls will help.

If they aren't neighbors, well there can be several events for several province IDs.

But as for Inida, don't worry its still undergoing major overhauls.
idontlikeforms said:
None of the other AIs are colonizing the Eastern US heavily, so yes it is an English AI problem.
INot if the English are taken out or severly weakened. How often does that happen if your a human and playing say...Scottland?
 

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idontlikeforms said:
Well I'm a bit skeptical that this model is more efficient and consistent than the one I made, but I definitely will admit that this sounds alot better than how it is in the AGCEEP, curruntly or is it just prior to the latest release?

The benefit of my model is that it follows what historically happened with details. This hasn't been submitted yet as I'm still working on it, and only recently made the events public.
 

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Garbon said:
The benefit of my model is that it follows what historically happened with details. This hasn't been submitted yet as I'm still working on it, and only recently made the events public.
Well I hope it works out well for you. I'm sure plenty of people will be pleased.
 

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Jinnai said:
Well why not then just read history? Why should it happen 95% for something like that?

These are key for Iberia and should happen most of the time (~95%):
  1. Spain and Portugal both existing when ToT needs to fire.
  2. Spain and Portugal colonizing historical regions
  3. Spain and Portugal for atleast become descently powerful early on.
  4. Spain discoering America when it should and first.
  5. Portugal mapping Africa aproximatly when it should and first.
These things are important, but not key and should happen descent amount of the time (~70%):
  1. Spain taking on American natives and winning.
  2. Portugal being involved to some extent in Near East and India.
  3. Portugal and Spain colonizing historical regions with correct numbers.
  4. Catile and Aragon uniting.
  5. Granada dying when it historically should aproximatly (not within the first few years nor lingering on indefinatly), perferably by Castile/Spain, not Portugal.
  6. Atleast some involvement with Spain/Portugal in the far east.

These things because they happened should likely happen, but shouldn't be prssed (~51%)
  1. Spain taking out american natives in one war apiece.
  2. Portugal dominating India and Near East Trade for a time.
  3. The eventual decline of Portugal and Spain.
  4. Heavier involvemnt in Far East than currently.
These things should be possible, but not likely since they didn't historically happen (~49%):
  1. Some ahisotirc revolters forming under certain conditions
  2. Colonization in other surrounding historical (ie not just colonize only provinces they histroically colonized, but also surrounding ones, FE Spain going and colonizing all of SA, including all of Brazil and Portugal concentrating on India than SA
  3. Spain or Portugal be able to out-compete Britian and others in some unhistroic areas (FE Inidia) (this is kida related to #2)
These should be possible, but not likely. However, they shouldn't be stopped from happening on occasion, just the norm.
  1. Granada dying quickly
  2. Granda surviving infinatly long (perhaps to 1820(
  3. A unifitcation of Spain/Portugal after the ToT
  4. Navarra becoming a part of Spain/Castile or France/Dauphaine.
  5. Aragon, if it survives doing <i>some</i> colonizing later on. Perhaps also Navarra...and dare I say Granada, but not so much for either of them.
  6. Unhistorical Colonization, such as Spain colonizing Eastern NA or Portugal colonzing CA.
  7. Castile or Portugal going Reformed or Protestant
These few things should preety much be stamped out (~5%:)
  1. Both Spain and Portugal not existing.
  2. Resurgant Granda (except for <i<Frantasy</i> Resurgant Granada scenerio)
  3. A powerhouse Navarra
  4. Non-Iberians controlling huge chunks of Iberia.
These are all my opinions of course, some of which i'm sure you agree with and others you don't.

Again, I'm not arguing against the rise of Spain, but merely the method and the extent.

Well Jinnai, this is exactly what some of us were talking about. We should start identifying essential historic events and making sure that they do happen, and clean all events so they are favoured, making sure the DPs are optimal and the AI fits the bill.

If we agree in the method then we go a long way towards solving the problems, as this will set guidelines for what future modders should respect and aim at, so things are not thrown into disarray just because we are looking the other way when someone introduces an historically accurate event that leads to ahistoric results.

An example that was discussed a lot where the Juana events that reflected the events when Isabel takes the throne of Castile, and Portugal supports Juana and participates in the civil war. Historical accuracy resulted in events that lowered relations often leading to historically accurate confrontation that produced ahistoric taking of Portuguese land by Castile,
leading to problems in Portuguese colonization. So, historical precision requires that relations between Portugal and Castile are kept high despite the Juana incident.

After we have agreed on the method, we can start making this sort of lists and discussing which are the essential events, and what should be their chances.

I am a little bit torn between what Garbon proposes, as I more or less fixed Granada the way he proposes, and clearly is my preferred way of doing things, and what IDLF says that things that go against the engine cannot be fixed unless AI cheats are used. The Spanish conquest of the Incas in one go is impossible for the AI, and it usually takes centuries. But if we are going to give it as a freebie (as it is now), I rather do it only for the AI, as a human player has absolutely no problem conquering them. It is the same as the Ottoman take over the Mameluks. The AI makes its way south through land borders, sometimes in two or three wars, while the human player disembarks and collects. Hardly the ideal situation. The requirement for the AI should be lowered while the requirement for the human should be the same as for taking out a pagan, total control.
 

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Fodoron said:
The Spanish conquest of the Incas in one go is impossible for the AI, and it usually takes centuries. But if we are going to give it as a freebie (as it is now), I rather do it only for the AI, as a human player has absolutely no problem conquering them. It is the same as the Ottoman take over the Mameluks.

But these are both examples of a kind of lightning war that simply isn't accepted by the game engine. To preserve historicity, they should be gimme events for the players as well - simply to represent what occured. There wasn't a 1000 mi. slog of European style sieges through the Andes - there was a single masterstroke that destroyed the Incan Empire followed by a century of more and less successful revolts.

There's game balance and then there's just recognizing Spain and OE -should- be that powerful. If players feel such luck is beneath them, there's always Byzantium and Mainz.


My two cents, anyway,
jay.
 

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As far as Jinnai's list, sure, I think every regional thread should have something similar; or is it easier for the GC to keep such posts all in one place?

(smells adhesive,)
jay.
 

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Having now played/viewed at least 10 games that following problems will need to be rectified.

1. POR does not explore the correct areas. (fixed by replacing my files)

2. OE all good in the balkans, problems are ith KK being around instead of Persia and also the OE does not take Egypt.

These are the 2 most glaring problems in about 90% of games.
 

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Llywelyn said:
But these are both examples of a kind of lightning war that simply isn't accepted by the game engine. To preserve historicity, they should be gimme events for the players as well - simply to represent what occured. There wasn't a 1000 mi. slog of European style sieges through the Andes - there was a single masterstroke that destroyed the Incan Empire followed by a century of more and less successful revolts.

And in fact, there is a gimme event sequence for Spain grabbing the Incas in the AGCEEP. Who says the AGCEEP has a no-cheats policy? I don't see any reason to make this AI-only. The conquest of the Incas simply wasn't organized from Madrid. Making the player work at conquering them is completely ahistorical.

There are also events to help Spain conquer the Aztecs. But they aren't as deterministic, and don't work well. I was trying to model the historical probabilities, but the AI simply won't attack aggressively enough to fulfill the trigger conditions. Those should probably be replaced by something along the lines of the Inca events. It's not like Cortez was really acting under anybody's orders.
 
Last edited:

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AlanC9 said:
And in fact, there is a gimme event sequence for Spain grabbing the Incas in the AGCEEP. Who says the AGCEEP has a no-cheats policy? I don't see any reason to make this AI-only. The conquest of the Incas simply wasn't organized from Madrid. Making the player work at conquering them is completely ahistorical.

There are also events to help Spain conquer the Aztecs. But they aren't as deterministic, and don't work well. I was trying to model the historical probabilities, but the AI simply won't attack aggressively enough to fulfill the trigger conditions. Those should probably be replaced by something along the lines of the Inca events. It's not like Cortez was really acting under anybody's orders.

The whole concept of the game is ahistorical from that point of view. Do you send your explorers randomly to see what they discover?

I will refuse to play a game in which my conquests are handed to me in a silver plate. It is easy enough already to go get them myself.

If the AI fails to perform, but the human doesn't , then the AI must be helped, through events and game conditions if possible, and with AI only help if not.
 

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Fodoron said:
The whole concept of the game is ahistorical from that point of view. Do you send your explorers randomly to see what they discover?

I will refuse to play a game in which my conquests are handed to me in a silver plate. It is easy enough already to go get them myself.

If the AI fails to perform, but the human doesn't , then the AI must be helped, through events and game conditions if possible, and with AI only help if not.

to get the AI to explore historically is the easy part (have done that), the colonizing of certain areas is the headache.

Note: ensure that your explorers do not overlap each others years or you will not get their true benefits

Fodoran, do you know what file the maintenance for srmies anf fleets are. I want to make the fleet cost as miniscule as I can, to help POR, SPA, VEN, Dutch , english and everyone else who has a navy.
 

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Toio said:
to get the AI to explore historically is the easy part (have done that), the colonizing of certain areas is the headache.

Note: ensure that your explorers do not overlap each others years or you will not get their true benefits

Fodoran, do you know what file the maintenance for srmies anf fleets are. I want to make the fleet cost as miniscule as I can, to help POR, SPA, VEN, Dutch , english and everyone else who has a navy.


found it

MILNAVAL_WAR;We are paying %.3f$ for each warship.\nWe are paying %.2f$ extra for being above the support limit.\n;;;;;;;;;;2787
MILNAVAL_TRA;We are paying %.3f$ for each transport.\nWe are paying %.2f$ extra for being above the support limit.\n;;;;;;;;;;2788
MILNAVAL_GAL;We are paying %.3f$ for each galley.\nWe are paying %.2f$ extra for being above the support limit.\n;;;;;;;;;;2789

Fodoron, if I make the .3 and .2 all .1 do you think the maintenance for have a big fleet will be lowered.??
 

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Toio said:
Fodoran, do you know what file the maintenance for srmies anf fleets are. I want to make the fleet cost as miniscule as I can, to help POR, SPA, VEN, Dutch , english and everyone else who has a navy.

No idea, I would think that it is hardcoded. But it appears to be much lower than to the human player. At least they don't hit the same support limit as we do. Theirs is much higher.

On the other hand fleets were mighty expensive to build and support. In EU2 this last cost has been reduced a lot already.
 

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Fodoron said:
The whole concept of the game is ahistorical from that point of view. Do you send your explorers randomly to see what they discover?

I will refuse to play a game in which my conquests are handed to me in a silver plate. It is easy enough already to go get them myself.

If the AI fails to perform, but the human doesn't , then the AI must be helped, through events and game conditions if possible, and with AI only help if not.
:)

But i'd go a step further and say all those freebie cores and cultures given mostly to help the ai perform should be stripped from humans as well.
 

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Fodoron said:
No idea, I would think that it is hardcoded. But it appears to be much lower than to the human player. At least they don't hit the same support limit as we do. Theirs is much higher.

On the other hand fleets were mighty expensive to build and support. In EU2 this last cost has been reduced a lot already.

All I see is that the % for army and naval are identical. A standing army cost much more than a naval arm in those days. Venice was/could produce a galley per day. My references (society and wars in the renaissance by Hale) have standing armies of between 25000 to 40000 as we have in EU2. But the naval aspects are out of whack, give a nation 100 ships and they go broke.

My issue is that the AI does not disperse ships, so nations like POR suffer in colonizing due to funds.
 

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Jinnai said:
But i'd go a step further and say all those freebie cores and cultures given mostly to help the ai perform should be stripped from humans as well.
I'm all for giving core to help the AI perform, but the cores should be given to a player as well. I have NO problem with giving lategame UK or a British India cores on every Indian province. Lategame Europeans didn't historically suffer a badboy limitation for expanding their colonial empires. Otherwise UK would have suffered severe BB-wars. ;)
 

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Sute]{h said:
I'm all for giving core to help the AI perform, but the cores should be given to a player as well. I have NO problem with giving lategame UK or a British India cores on every Indian province. Lategame Europeans didn't historically suffer a badboy limitation for expanding their colonial empires. Otherwise UK would have suffered severe BB-wars. ;)
Yea but BB war threshold is upped as the game goes on, especially near the end and if its truly the BB your worried about an event can solve that.

I don't mind giving cores to them once they conquer the province, but not before. They didn't have a legitimate claim beforehand to invade india by anyone.
 

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Sute]{h said:
I'm all for giving core to help the AI perform, but the cores should be given to a player as well. I have NO problem with giving lategame UK or a British India cores on every Indian province. Lategame Europeans didn't historically suffer a badboy limitation for expanding their colonial empires. Otherwise UK would have suffered severe BB-wars. ;)

I agree that it'd be great if adding CB-shields would help England conquering India. However, it's still hard to justify giving them to England since there's nothing that says that England would've conquered India regardless of its earlier history, it might as well have been e.g. France or Portugal.
 

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Jinnai said:
I don't mind giving cores to them once they conquer the province, but not before. They didn't have a legitimate claim beforehand to invade india by anyone.

The question is to push the AI towards doing what nations did in history. If you tell the AI that they have no legitimate claim there, It won't go because it does not behave as an European government of the 18th century. In EU2 cores are just tools, not legitimate claims aproved by the International Tribunal.

When I play a nation I don't know anything about, I wait for cores to give me the clue about what I should be doing to play historically. I do not read a book before sitting to the computer. In that sense cores are also very helpful hints for the player.

I would do exactly the opposite. Put the core to get the conquest done and then remove it to avoid getting the benefits of a core national province from a far away colonial province.