HIP/SWMH: Suggestions for Southeast Europe (circa 867)

[Hongkie1697]

"Balgarsko" should be renamed, there is no official name of the dynasty, but historians call it Krum dynasty(the first ruler). Titles like Kavkhan, Komita would work really good with the 867 start, but it wont be historical for the later start dates. There are name of few bulgar dynasties from the First Bulgarian Empire, like Dulo, Vokil, Emri, Ugain. You can put some of the mentioned people in some of these clans. A noble with the name Onegavon from the clan Kubiar is mentioned in the first half of the 9th century, with title Tarkan. Also Okoris from the clan Charakar, during the same period, both of them are mentioned to have drowned in a river. There is a bit more info in the bulgarian wiki but not that much
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Прабългарски_родове

Also put a noble with the same name for the star wars fans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organa

As a matter of fact, the given names and Dynasty names are all modernised and therefore highly anachronistic.

For instance, even if we were to call Boris' dynasty "Bulgarian" (which is what Balgarsko means), it wouldn't be the modern Bulgarian "Balgarsko", but Old Church Slavonic "Blŭgarĭskŭ" (Блъгарьскъ); the family name suffixes -ov/-ev should be the Old Church Slavonic -ovŭ/-evŭ instead; Tsar should be replaced by the Old Church Slavonic Tsěsarŭ; Khan (if used) should be Kanŭ; Bulgarian Knyaz should be Kŭnẽzŭ (Кънѧꙃь); -ski should be ĭskŭ (-ьскъ) or ĭskŭii (-ьскꙑи)

Here's a rudimentary namelist that I've collected, maybe someone here who knows Bulgarian could go through some Bulgarian sources and come up with more genuine Old Bulgarian names and correct any mistakes that I might have made:

Male:
Adrianŭ Alexandrŭ Alusianŭ Anĭdrei Anĭdrianŭ Aronŭ Asenŭ Asparukhŭ Avramŭ Bezmerŭ Bogomilŭ Bogorisŭ Bogŭdanŭ Borilŭ Borislavŭ Borisŭ Boyĭnŭ Davidŭ Dimitrii Dobroměrŭ Dŭrmanŭ Enravota Gavriilŭ Georgii Gervasii Gorazdŭ Hrabrŭ Hranislavŭ Ioannŭ Iosĭya Isaakŭ Isbulŭ Ivatsŭ Ivaylo Kaloyěnŭ Kirillu Klimentŭ Konstantinŭ Krasiměrŭ Krumŭ Kudělinŭ Kurtŭ Lavrentii Malamĭrŭ Markŭ Metodii Mikhailŭ Naumŭ Nikola Omurtagŭ Petrŭ Presianŭ Radomměrŭ Samoilŭ Samuilŭ Savva Shishmanŭ Simeonŭ Sraksimirŭ Teodorŭ Tervelŭ Vladiměrŭ Vladislavŭ Voinŭ Zvinitsa

Female:
Adriana Agata Aleksandra Aleksandrina Anisia Anna Asenina Beloslava Borislava Desislava Dorotea Elena Elga Elisaveta Evdokíya Filipa Ioanna Irena Khristina Kira Klimenta Klimenta Konstantina Maria Miroslava Nikolina Rosa Sara Susanna Teodora Tereza Vasilisa Vasilka

 

[Ispil]

It'd probably be more reasonable to aim for Middle Bulgarian instead of Old Bulgarian- generally it is safer to lean towards later aspects of the game timeline than earlier. It's not like the game's timeframe doesn't cover both, but at least Middle Bulgarian covers more of it.

In that context, it wouldn't be Блъгарьскъ either. There's not a nice written source on what "Bulgarian" would be in Middle Bulgarian, so I'll have to do a little bit of linguistic reconstruction. For one, the shortened "yer" vowels all but disappeared across the entire Slavic continuum; in the context of Bulgarian, ъ eventually evolved into ă or a "short a", usually just written as 'a' when transliterated into a Latin alphabet lacking the a-breve character. It'd be the equivalent of the English schwa, such as the 'a' in "about" or the 'u' in "turn". "Yer" vowels in a weak position were simply deleted. Additionally, nasal vowels ceased being nasal. In that context, Блъгарьскъ (Blŭgarĭskŭ) becomes "Blăgarskă" as compared to the modern "Bălgarski"; modern Bulgarian undoes the metathesis that proto-Slavic->Old Church Slavonic underwent, which is where you get a lot of those liquid diphthong flips. An example of this in English is cavalry, which is pronounced as if it is spelled "calvary", with the 'va' and the 'l' flipped. Nuclear is another example (pronounced "nucular" by flipping the 'l' and the 'e', dropping the 'e' to a 'u').

There's also some discussion about Bulgarian at the time also applying arbitrary metathesis beyond that of the original metathesis that took place, so you could also argue in favor of "Bălgarskă". Dropping the breves, you'd get "Balgarska". Not sure when the modern ending for "i" took place.


It's also worth noting that we are limited to just the characters on this list. 90% of your examples use characters that are not available.


Also, at least going off of Wikipedia, I think your Old Bulgarian spelling of Tsar is off. The Wikipedia-presented Old Bulgarian name for the First Bulgarian Empire is "ц︢рьство бл︢гарское", or "Tsrĭstvo" (in this context that's a weak yer), meaning that the original word is probably "Tsrŭ" or "ц︢ръ". Yours seems to be a much more literal rendering of "Caesar", but even by Old Church Slavonic standards by now it would be a form like "Tsar," due to the proto-Slavic influence.

 

[Hongkie1697]

Well the game ends in around 14th to 15th century, so as a matter of fact it covers more of Old Bulgarian (9th–11th century, almost exactly the time frame of the game) than Middle Bulgarian (12th–16th according to Encyclopedia Britannica, that's a century or two not covered). Either way, it's probably just minor editing like removing/replacing the "ŭ" (?).

As for the dynasty name, I think in Boris' case it may be better to just use Krumov/Krumovŭ (Krum's dynasty), instead of "Blăgarskă"?

The real problem is that English sources (or perhaps there just aren't as much literature that survived) online seem to be difficult to find, if there are any in the first place, and doesn't really tell/give us the names as recorded in the 1st-handed sources save for the ghastly modernised version.

Apart from that I've compiled a namelist for the Old East Slavic/Rusian culture which most efinitely covers the whole period in-game (Russian as represented in the game) mostly from here (with Russian sources in the post), a few from wiktionary, wikipedia, and elsewhere:

Spoiler: Male names

male_names = {
Aepa Akunu Antonii_Anthonios Arufastu Askolidu Asmudu Azugutu Bakei Bakula Baleslavu Balichinu Baluvanu Balyuku Bandyuku Banichu Basata Bazhenuko Bela Belina Belishi Belu
Belushu Bernu Bezidedu Bezidrugu Bezizhenu Bisiku Bitiku Blago Blagu Blata Blatishi Blego Blegu Blizhiku Bliziboru Bliziradosti Blizuku Bludu Bogosudu Bogovidu Bogudalu
Bogudanu Boisha Boislavu Bola Bolaru Boleboru Bolebudu Bolegosti Boleslavu Bolinu Bolovanu Borilo Borisu_Boris Borislavu Boru Boruko Boryata Bosaku Bosiku Boyanu Bozha
Bozhanu Bozheboru Bozhei Bozheta Bozhetekhu Bozhi Bozhiku Boziku Branimiru Branu Branuko Broyanu Bruny Bryachislavu_Bretislaus Buda Budiku Budimilu Budimiru Budislavu
Budy Bukanu Byandyuku Bykutu Bynu Bynuka Bysiku Bytiku Chacha Chada Chadiku Chadoboru Chaika Chakhota Chasiniku Chasitinu Chasitoboru Chasitolovu Chasitunu Chaslavu
Chasuka Chavunu Chernei Cherniku Chila Chirna Chirninu Chistata Chistiboru Chistimiru Chistina Chistinu Chudoboru Chuzhemiru Chuzhi Chyudinu Dalesha Daleshu Dalicha
Dalika Dalu Daniilu_Daniel Danisha Danislavu Davidu_David Dedi Dedomilu Dedu Dedunu Deka Dimitriy_Demetrius Dimitru_Demetrius Diraguku Diru Divu Dobesta Dobiku Dobomyslu
Dobraku Dobreta Dobriku Dobrochai Dobromilu Dobromyslu Dobroslavu Dobrosu Dobrotai Dobrovidu Dobrynya Doma Domagosti Domamiru Domaslavu Domata Dragomuzhi Dragoradu
Dragota Dragotekhu Dragunu Drazhi Drazhiku Drozdu Drugu Dulgomiru Dulgoslavu Durzhislavu Elo Eloviti Eustafii_Eustace Furustenu Gamo Gavriilu_Gabriel Georgii_George
Giliko Glebu Godomilu Godomiru Goimiru Goislavu Goliku Gonika Gordyata Goryaseru Gostinu Gotatsa Goza Gozha Grabanu Grabiku Gridata Grimu Groznata Grudy Gudimiru Gudu
Guku Gurdeboru Gurdota Gurdu Gurdunu Gusa Gusha Gyurgii_George Gyuryata Igori_Ingvar Ikmoru Ilarionu_Hilarion Iliya Ingeludu Inoslavu Ioannu_John Istbesha Ivanu_John
Ivoru Izechi Izoslavu Izyaslavu Kadaku Kadiboru Kadova Kana Kanishu Kanitsaru Karinu Karshu Kary Kasha Kelina Khavlyata Khodota Khotaka Khotata Khotenu Khoteshu Khotinu
Khrapa Khrapiku Khrenu Khripanu Khuku Khumunu Khutsi Khuzha Khvala Khvalu Khvostu Khyniku Kirillu_Cyril Klenimiru Klenu Klyuka Knana Kobyluka Kogatsa Koi Koika Koishu
Kokhata Kokhu Kolchiko Koliga Koliku Koluna Kolusa Komoru Kona Konasha Konstantinu_Constantine Kormanu Kosara Koselugu Kosnyatinu_Constantine Kosto Kozilu Krasata Krasiku
Krasimiru Krasinu Krasislavu Kreku Krepimiru Krima Krina Krizhanu Krizhiku Kruka Kruku Krutovoi Kryuka Kryuku Kukharu Kuksha Kulimei Kulmei Kulomiru Kuna Kusu Kutsi
Kvasata Kvasiku Kvasina Kvasu Kveku Kveta Kvetika Kvetiku Kvetinu Kvetu Kvetunu Ladunu Larionu_Hilarion Lashniku Lebu Lesanu Lestvitsa Letana Letona Letoslavu Letseru
Letunu Libiaru Libnaru Lodiku Lovata Loviku Lugunu Luku Lyakhu Lyashiko Lyuba Lyubachi Lyubachiku Lyubata Lyubii Lyubinu Lyubogosti Lyuboi Lyubomiru Lyuboru Lyuboshu
Lyubu Lyubunu Lyuby Lyudiku Lyudislavu Lyudomilu Lyudomyslu Lyuta Lyutechi Lyuteta Lyutiku Lyutoboru Lyutobranu Lyutognevu Lyutomiru Lyutomyslu Lyutoradu Lyutoshu
Lyutovidu Lyutu Macha Macheta Machiku Machu Malisha Malishuka Malitsa Malu Maluku Maly Mane Manideru Maniyaku Mantina Manu Manya Mareshu Mariku Marshiku Maru Maslavu
Mechislavu Meshika Mestyata Michuka Mikula Milashiku Milei Milgosti Milidukhu Milogosti Miloshu Milovanuv Milovidu Milovii Miluka Milunu Milyata Mina Mira Mirata Mireta
Mirolyubu Miromiru Mironegu Miroshika Miroshu Miroslavu Mistata Mistei Mistibogu Mistignevu Mistisha Mistislavu_Mstislav Mitrofan Modlata Modlibogu Modlyata Moguta Mogutu
Moimiru Moislavu Mokroshu Mony Mrakeshi Muchuka Mutimiru Mutinuka Mutu Muturu Muzhiku Myslei Mysleta Mysliboru Nachatu Nachegosti Nachevoi Nadei Nadzha Naglasu Naglazu
Nagradu Naugosti Navoi Navorotu Nayapa Nechta Nedimyslu Nedivitu Nedogosti Nedugosti Neganu Neglazu Negoradu Negu Nekta Nelepa Nelepu Nema Nemota Nemyslu Neraditsi Nesata
Neshata Nesyta Neusha Neusiku Nezanu Nezhata Nezhatinu Nezhiku Nikiforu_Nikephoros Ninei Niniku Nisuka Nosu Nosuka Nuzhiku Nyanika Obida Obidu Obranu Odolinu Odolu Olebu
Oleni Olibegu Oligu_Helgi Olima Olomutu Olota Olova Oneshu Onodragu Orashu Orogosti Oseni Osimuni Oslyata Osmomyslu Ostakhu Ostoi Ostrata Ostrekhu Ostrolya Ostromiru
Otiku Otradu Pabichka Pabo Pachiku Paka Pakiratu Paku Palitsuka Parkhina Pazaru Pechtiku Pelika Perenegu Perenitu Pereyaslavu Pikulari Pili Pilini Pina Piskori Piskoru
Pivona Plaku Platishi Plativoi Platu Pleskova Podiva Pomilu Porei Porinu Porutu Pota Potekha Povozu Pozdiku Pozdinu Pozvizdu Prasitinu Praviku Preda Prede Predimiru
Predota Predusha Preduvoi Prelyutu Premilu Premislavu Premyslu Pretichi Prevoi Pribilu Pribinya Pribisha Pribislavu Pribivoi Pribranu Prisnei Prisota Pristanu Privikhu
Priviku Privina Priyaslavu Prosigoru Prostei Pruganu Ptaku Pubiskari Pula Pusiki Putisha Putusha Putyata Pyasti Rache Rachi Rachinu Radei Radenta Radetekhu Radetsa
Radigradu Radilo Radimu Radisa Radita Radita Rado Radogosti Radomilu Radomiru Radomyslu Radoshu Radoslavu Radosti Radovanu Raduko Radunu Radyata Raniku Ranoshu Rashi
Rashitsa Rasita Rastichinu Rastislavu Ratiboru Ratimiru Ratiniku Ratishi Rato Razgudu Razhika Razho Razvodu Rediku Redunu Rerenka Reyanu Ridagu Rodomilu Roguvolodu
Rosovidu Rostislavu Rotashu Rozhneta Rozhtei Rozislavu Rozroi Rozvadu Rozvoi Rulavu Ryuriku_Rurik Saba Sabota Samoradu Samota Saniku Sanishu Sarubu Sboru Sbyslavu Sdanto
Sdomidu Sebislavu Seboda Sebudi Sechu Sederikhu Sedeslavu Sedlyata Sedulo Sedulunu Segu Sekera Sekeruka Seliboru Selimiru Semilu Semimyslu Semislavu Semota Senu
Sestrogoru Setekhu Sezima Sezoru Shchegulu Shcheku Shchepanu Shchepata Shchitu Sheba Shebu Shikhubernu Shimiku Shimonu_Simon Shuma Shupiku Siliku Siluka Sineusu Sinogoru
Sinokhu Sinuko Siraku Siromu Siroslavu Skorosha Skoru Skoryaku Slava Slaviboru Slaviku Slavimiru Slavisha Slavisu Slavitai Slavitekhu Slavitsa Slavoboi Slavomilu
Slavomiru Slavotekhu Slavunu Slavyata Slopanu Sludy Sluga Slugata Slugota Sluzhaku Sluzhata Sluzhinu Smekhuno Smekhunu Smilu Snovidu Sobata Sobegurdu Sobeslavu Sobiku
Sobinu Sobitekhu Sobunu Sochibaba Sodu Solimiru Soliradu Spitignevu Spitomiru Stakhu Staniku Stanimiru Stanislavu_Stanislav Stariku Stefanu_Stephen Stepanu_Stephen
Stegutu Stemidu Stiru Stoganu Stonari Strakhu Strashu Stratimiru Streinu Stroilu Stroimiru Stromata Subichu Subislavu Suda Sudislavu Sukhora Sukkhoslavu Sulei Suliku
Sulislavu Sulu Sunu Supanu Suryana Susha Sushu Sveni Svenaludu Sveniludu Svetopulku_Svatopluk Svetoslavu_Sviatoslav Svinimiru Svoi Svoibogu Svoiinu Svoiyata Svona
Svyatibogu Svyatiku Svyatoboru Svyatopulku Svyatoradu Svyatoslavu Svyatu Svyatunu Syatosha Talitsi Tamu Tasho Tasu Tekhamilu Tekhanu Tekhochi Tekhomilu Tekhomiru Tekhota
Tekhuna Temata Temu Teni Terpimiru Tesha Teshata Teshiku Teshina Teshinu Tetiku Teto Tikhochi Tira Tirnaku Tisuta Torcha Torchinu Treba Trebata Trebiku Trebinu Trebishu
Trebota Truvoru Tsebu Tserga Tsergu Tuduko Tuga Tuky Tura Turdu Turu Turubernu Tury Turyaku Tviridisha Tviridita Tviridyata Tvorimiru Ubichiku Ubichisti Uglitsi Ulanu
Ulebu Unemyslu Uneta Unevidu Uniku Unuka Usebudu Usemiru Uta Utekhu Utinu Uzdiku Vaba Vabrata Vabriku Varyazhiko Vasilii_Basil Vasura Vatsemilu Vatsena Vatseta Vechemiru
Vechilu Vechinu Vechlo Veka Veku Velichu Veliko Velimudru Velishu Velislavu Veremudu Vestiku Vestyna Vezlo Viacheslav Vilikosu Virkhoslavu Vitashu Vitiku Vitinu Vitislavu
Vitu Vitemiru Vladiku Vlakhu Vlasu Vobiku Voi Voiboru Voiku Voislavu Voistu Voita Voitekhu Voiteshu Voitikha Voitosha Volodari Volodimeru_Vladimir Volodislavu_Vladislav
Voluchii Vorotislavu Vrachika Vraku Vritisla Vseboru Vsebudu Vsegurdu Vseradu Vseslavu Vsevolodu Vsevolozhi Vulchuku Vulku Vulkunu Vuzlevu Vyachemiru Vyachena Vyacheslavu
Vyacheta Vyachiku Vygunu Vynkina Vyseta Vysha Vyshata Vyshemiru Vyshera Vysheslavu Vyshota Vysinu Vysota Yakimu_Joakim Yanicha Yanika Yanu Yarei Yariku Yarognevu
Yarolyubu Yaromiru Yaropulku Yaroshu Yaroslavu_Jaroslav Yeropulku Yurata Yuriku Yutriku Yutro Yutroshu Zaboi Zaboru Zagonu Zakonu Zaku Zavidu Zavyala Zbuku Zharanu
Zharichi Zhelanu Zheliboru Zhesuka Zheza Zhidanu Zhidyata Zhiku Zhira Zhirata Zhiroslavu Zhirovitu Zhitobudu Zhivitekhu Zhivota Zhizna Zhiznobudu Zhiznomiru Zibota
Zimgolu Zivanu Znata Zogairu Zuba Zvonimiru
}

Spoiler: Female names

female_names = {
Anastasiya_Anastasia Anna_Anna Balemila Bazhena Bora Boleslava Boryuta Bozhena Bratomila Bratrata Chernislava Chyudika Deda Dekava Desa Desha Deva Devuka Dima Dimuta
Dobrogneva Dobrovesti Dobroslava Domaslava Dozhene Dragomira Dragoslava Dubrava Dusha Gorislava Gostcha Gosta Gostena Gostyata Irina_Irene Kasha Kashika Khrana Khvalibuda
Khvalislava Khynika Kosa Krabava Kraie Kraiiku Krasa Krayanu Krayata Kseniya Kvetava Lanka Liba Luka Lybedi Lyuba Lyubone Lyudena Lyudimila Lyudomila Malona Malonya Malucha
Maluchuka Malufredi Maluka Malusha Mana Maria_Maria Marina_Marina Marka Milakhna Milata Milekha Mileva Milika Milokhna Miloslava Milota Mirena Mistislava Mlada Myslina
Nastasiya Nezvolena Nozdricha Nozdrichi Nozdritsa Olena_Helen Oliga_Helga Olikha Onoslava Paraskoviya Pereduslava Pereyaslava Petsa Petsila Preduslava Premislava
Pribyslava Rada Radoslava Radosta Raduka Richikha Riksa Rodislava Rognedi Rostislava Sbyslava Semislava Sima Sina Slava Sofia_Sophia Spitoslava Strezhena Sulislava
Svyatata Svyatava Svyatokhna Svyatoslava Tatyana Tekha Teshika Teta Tetuka Tulina Tutana Ulyana Valikina Variiku Varvara Varyashuko Vasilisa Velislava Vitasha Vivuka
Vyachenega Vyacheslava Vyshemila Vysheslava Yanuka Yarognedi Yarokhuna Yaroslava Yasynya Yefimia_Euphemia Yefrosinia_Euphrosyne Yekaterina_Catherine Yelizaveta_Elisabeth
Yevdokia_Eudocia Yevpraxia Zhirava Zhiznava Zvenislava
}

 

[Ispil]

Well, going off of this, we can see that, at least contemporary to the First Bulgarian Empire, it would be "ц︢ри" (worth noting in the picture that it is "ц︢рн" due to how 'И' was derived from the Greek Eta 'H') or "Tsri". Now, something also worth noting is that the "final ъ" was actually silent most of the time. In 1945, Bulgarian dropped it altogether. So I suppose it's a matter of to what degree we respect period-accurate Bulgarian orthography or period-accurate Bulgarian phonetics.

 

[Hongkie1697]

Well, going off of this, we can see that, at least contemporary to the First Bulgarian Empire, it would be "ц︢ри" (worth noting in the picture that it is "ц︢рн" due to how 'И' was derived from the Greek Eta 'H') or "Tsri".

Depends if it's just an dialectal/casual form, or a simplified way of writing цѣсарь (it's not uncommon for epigraphs to have shortened words to saving space or effort, e.g. Graeco-Roman epigraphs) , or even a mistake.

Now, something also worth noting is that the "final ъ" was actually silent most of the time. In 1945, Bulgarian dropped it altogether. So I suppose it's a matter of to what degree we respect period-accurate Bulgarian orthography or period-accurate Bulgarian phonetics.

As far as I know this is not entirely true - in Bulgarian it only became silent (but remained because the author is probably trying to be linguistically conservative) or removed later on (not in 9th century). The Language was standardised in around 9th century, it's almost impossible that they would add a silent letter in for no reason - when a language is first written down, it's generally the case that it matches the actual way people spoke...... after all, Methodius and Cyril preached to the Slavs not so long ago before the starting bookmark in this language and script, which was not their mother language, it would be almost inconceivable for them to not create a script that matches the actual phonology of the language.

 

[Ispil]

I mean, I never said when it started being silent. It's hard to analyze phonetics when all we have is orthography.

Regarding Tsar, we'll never know for sure. We're talking about 1000-year-old orthography; trying to figure out all the details is going to be impossible.

Besides, given the limited character set, simplifying the yers is already required for the sake of even having them in-game; actually typing them as plain 'i' and 'u' is incredibly inaccurate to the phonetics of the region, and are better off using their known mergers. If we're using the mergers, might as well drop the weak yer as well.


To your earlier point, it is my understanding that Old Bulgarian is from the 9th to 11th centuries, and Middle Bulgarian until the 16th or so. So while the game covers more of Old Bulgarian than it does Middle Bulgarian, Middle Bulgarian covers more of the game than Old Bulgarian. You have the logic backwards- it's not which one of those varieties has better representation by the game's timeframe, but which one of those varieties better represents the game's timeframe.

 

[Hongkie1697]

I mean, I never said when it started being silent.

this

Now, something also worth noting is that the "final ъ" was actually silent most of the time.

is rather ambiguous and I interpreted it as saying that most of the written final ъ was silent regardless of the period it was written in.

Anyway, whether it's hard to analyze phonetics depends on whether the written records were mostly the same and unchanged throughout the ages or not, like Standard written Chinese (not the vernacular Sinitic languages, which was for the most part very rarely written until early modern age), or fluid and irregular as the writer sees fit which then would suggest that it's more likely to reflect the actual pronunciation than not, like Middle English which was never standardised.

Now I don't know if Bulgarians wrote most of the records of the time only in Old Church Slavonic or as they spoke (something that would presumbly gradually become different to Old Church Slavonic, so I'll leave that to someone able to read Bulgarian sources and find out about it.

 

[Farcheal]

I posted a bit more information. I need to stop doing this when I'm about to go to sleep ‍.

There are name of few bulgar dynasties from the First Bulgarian Empire, like Dulo, Vokil, Emri, Ugain. You can put some of the mentioned people in some of these clans.

I was actually planning on using clan Ugain already, although that shall be featured when I discuss North of the Danube. Otherwise, each of these clans is really too far removed from our time period to be useful. Even using Ugain as I intend to is a stretch, but it's mostly flavour (and some reasoning behind it).

A noble with the name Onegavon from the clan Kubiar is mentioned in the first half of the 9th century, with title Tarkan. Also Okoris from the clan Charakar, during the same period, both of them are mentioned to have drowned in a river. There is a bit more info in the bulgarian wiki but not that much

If I remember correctly, these guys both drowned in rivers in and around modern Romania. Sort of hard to link them too, as I think they'd have been from around Omurtags time, although I may put in some reference. I hesitate to do so as the evidence is so light.


In response to the questions about the titles I mentioned. I should have clarified that I was more giving them for context to what I was going on to say rather than for them to be input into HIP. If I did more research, I could try come up with some more concrete suggestions for that purpose though.

In response to the 'Balgarsko' dynasty points, I myself was thinking something along the lines of 'Krumov' would suit but didn't think anyone else agree! It seems to be referred to pretty unanimously by scholars as "Krum's Dynasty".

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about linguistics to comment on that debate above.

 

[theKing1988]

Lets just put that discussion to bed. We will be aiming for Middle Bulgarian

 

[hackera88]

Krum seems like the best fit, Krumov sounds too modern. The later titles that are used now are better option, perhaps some of the older bulgar ones like kavhan, ichirgu boil can be used for the volga bulgars.
Also found two other nobles during the same period(I think they were included in the vanilla)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alogobotur

Some of these nobles could be assigned with some of the mentioned clans, I think it makes more sense than some random name like "Makedonska" it just means Macedonian, same as "Balgarsko"

 

[High Elder Ash]

I don't have anything to add to the conversation, I just want to say that I love the attention the Balkans are getting. I'm not of any descent from the Balkans, but the history of the area is fascinating to me and I hope some of this gets into the game.

 

[theKing1988]

Would it need a suffix? I assume the -ov suffix is the modern last name suffix used in Bulgarian. I don't have that much knowledge on Middle Bulgarian to be able to tell, what the last name suffix were in Middle Bulgarian. But i assume it could very well have developed as the language developed

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

Addition: The Croatian name for emperor is "Car" id like to see this ingame aswell as Constantinople beeing displayed as "Carigrad" under Croatian controll. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carigrad

EDIT: Talking about localisation: i have many croatian localistaion names which are not ingame but im not into modding. Is there a dev interested in implementing them? I just need instructions on how to provide my informations best.

 

[Farcheal]

Krum seems like the best fit, Krumov sounds too modern.

Would it need a suffix? I assume the -ov suffix is the modern last name suffix used in Bulgarian. I don't have that much knowledge on Middle Bulgarian to be able to tell, what the last name suffix were in Middle Bulgarian. But i assume it could very well have developed as the language developed

Perhaps out Linguists could shed some light upon this? Seems that commonly Slavic Patronymics consisted of some derivative of '-ov', even at the time frame. We're modelling Bulgarian as a Slavic culture, and this fusion had already begun before 867, so it doesn't seem complete unreasonable to me that it would be something akin to 'Krumov'. Of course, I'm not sure how this would be rendered in Middle Bulgarian.

The later titles that are used now are better option, perhaps some of the older bulgar ones like kavhan, ichirgu boil can be used for the volga bulgars.
Also found two other nobles during the same period(I think they were included in the vanilla)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alogobotur
Some of these nobles could be assigned with some of the mentioned clans, I think it makes more sense than some random name like "Makedonska" it just means Macedonian, same as "Balgarsko"

About the titles, that's true, we could look into them for the Volga Bulgars too.

I wouldn't randomly just assign a clan name to someone with no link that they belonged to that clan. 'Makedonska' means 'from Makedon', that's not Random. If associating that with Marmais, who we know was a 'Komita' in the region, it seems reasonable to name his dynasty after that place. I'd prefer to link to something else, but this seems like a good compromise to me.

Salan is already being used, but will be discussed when I move North of the Danube.
'Alogobotur' was not a personal name, but the title of a general under Simeon. As such we can't really link it to any single person. I think it's a loose end.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Furthermore Constanintinopolis province can have these cities: Selymbria, Hagia Sophia (as a place for Ecumenical Patriarchate), Hebdomon, Athyra, Rhegion and Derkon (I found that 4/6 cities from this province were just parts of Constantinople itself so I replaced them with actual existed cities). I put Selymbria in that list because it was straight behind Anastasian Walls.

That's wholly working as designed as far as I know. Those 'cities' in the County of Constantinople were originally added as castles but at the some point they were 'nerfed' into town.

Also it's not the only case where a sub-part of the city is added as an individual holding. Baghdad, Jerusalem, Paris, London, Antioch, Novgorod and many more work in this way.

 

[theKing1988]

I know the Southern part of Thrace, aka. the Kallipolis province has an astounding amount of Cities and Fortresses recorded during the game period. And i have been wavering on wanting to re-introduce the split that were there initially when i did the ERE overhaul, and just move the border up from the Gallipoli peninsula to include more of Thrace itself. In the initial ERE setup, i had the Gallipoli peninsula as a separate province, if any of you don't remember. For now i'm holding back though. It wouldn't really serve any purpose, in giving a noble family their power base, and if it is extended from the Gallipoli peninsula it doesn't really improve the portrayal of the Theme structure. And there are other parts of the ERE that could use the province just as much, if not more. But we (the SWMH team) are still in low-activity mode, and to introduce a province, would likely mean to remove a province elsewhere. And i don't do that unless i talk it over with Aasmul first.

As for Constantinople, it is indeed completely working as designed. We have plenty of cities on the map represented by both it's citadel and the city itself, or the citadel, the city and a temple/church/mosque. Constantinople is a bit unique in that it moves past having one city represented by 3 holdings, but it is a bit of a carry-over from Vanilla. And the borders are designed to be able to support it, by constricting Constantinople as close to the city itself, while the province still remains clickable on the map etc.

 

[Maximius]

Hi I've made this tweaks for myself regarding south slavic names:

1. Karantanci:

male_names = {
Aleš Alojz Andreas_Andrew Adrian_Adrian Andrej_Andrew Anton_Antoninus Adam_Adam Aleksandar_Alexander Avgust Božidar_Theodore Bartolomej_Bartolomeus Blaž_Blaise Bogdan Bogomir Bojan Borut Boštjan Branislav Dejan Davor Domislav Domicijan Etgar Edvard_Edward Ernest_Ernest Franc_Francis Fran_Francis Gašpar Gregor_Gregory Gorazd Gojmir Hotimir Ivan_John Ivo_John Istok Ignacij_Ignatius Jakob_Jacob Nikola_Nicholas Ognjen Vuk_Lupo Janez Janko Jernej Josip_Joseph Jozef_Joseph Julij_Julian Jure Jurij Jaroslav Krištof_Christopher Karel_Charles Lovro Ludovik Lenard Ljudevit Lovro Marin Marko_Marcus Matjaž_Matthew Matevž_Matthew Mihael_Michael Milan Miha_Michael Miroslav Oton Pavel_Paul Peter_Peter Perun Pribislav Primož Rene Rihard_Richard David_David Grgur_Gregory Robert Samo Semik Stane Stefan_Stephen Stanislav Stojmir Tomaž_Thomas Valtunk Valuk Vitomil Vid Viktor_Victor Viljem_William Vladimir Volk Vonko Vladislav Vitomir Venceslav Vekoslav Višeslav Valentin Zdeslav

female_names = {
Agata Albina Alena Alenka Alojzija Amalija Ana Andrea Antonia Apolonia Avrelia Bojana Brigita Cecilija
Danica Daniela Daria Dorotea Draga Dragica Dunja Dubravka Edita Elizabeta Emilia Erika Franciska Gertruda Gregoria Irena Ivana
Jana Jasa Jelka Jera Johana Jolanda Jozefa Jozefina Julija Julijana Justina Karolina Katarina Katja Klaudia Kristina Ksenija
Ljubica Ljudmila Lucia Maja Majda Mara Maria Marta Martina Matea Melita Olivera
Metka Mila Milena Natalia Nataša Nina Olga Pavla Petra Renata Roza Rozalia Silvia
Sabina Slava Špela Stefana Tanja Terezija Ursa Ursala Vedrana Velana Vera Veronika Vida Vesna Zedenka


2. Croatian

male_names = {
Adam_Adam Andrija_Andrew Ante_Antoninus Antun_Antoninus Blaž_Blaise Borna Braslav Bartol_Bartolomeus Bojan Boris Branimir Castimir Danilo_Daniel Dmitar_Demetrius Dobromir Dragan Dragomir Držislav Dujam Domagoj Davor Dubravko Franjo_Francis Filip_Philip Gašpar Goran Gojislav Djordje_George Grgur_Gregory Hranislav Hrvoje Ivan_John Ivaniš_John Iljko Jug Jadranko_Adrian Jaroslav Juraj Jure Jitej Josif_Joseph Josip_Joseph Karlo_Charles Koloman_Koloman Krešimir Ladislav Ljudevit Ljutomisl Lovro Luka Marko_Marcus Martin_Martin Matej_Matthew Mihajlo_Michael Milman Mislav_Miroslav Muncimir Matko_Matthew Nikola_Nicholas Ninoslav Ognjen Pavao_Paul Petar_Peter Prohor Radoslav Radomir Ratimir Svetoslav Sebeslav Slaven Stanislav_Stanislav Stjepan_Stephen Teodor_Theodore Tomislav_Thomas Tihomir Tvrdoslav Trpimir Ulfo_Ulf Vid Vitomir
Miroslav Vjekoslav Vojnomir Višeslav Zdeslav Želimir Zvonimir Zdenko David_David

female_names = {
Adriana Ana_Anna Adela Aleksandra Borislava Buga Dorotea_Dorothy Ekaterina_Catherine Helena_Helen Jadviga Ladika Maria_Maria Mihaela Nada Petra Viola_Yolanda Jadranka Mara Antonija Dragana Dubravka Ivana Irena Mirjana Emilija_Emily Gordana Julijana Josipa Jagoda Jelena Jelka Lucija_Lucia Katalina_Catherine Marija_Maria Marijana Mirjana Mirna Natalija Nataša Rijeka Renata Olivera Silvija Snježana Sofija_Sophia Suzana_Susana Svjetlana Tatjana Tihana Tuga Vesna Valerija Vedrana Višnja Vjekoslava Zlata Zvonimira Zdenka

3. Serbian

male_names = {
Andrija_Andrew Balša_Blaise Boško Bojan Beloš Branislav Branko Bran Bogdan Bodin Branimir Budimir Caslav Draško Dejan Desa Dimitrije_Demetrius Dušan Dragoslav Danilo_Daniel Dobroslav Dragoš Dragutin Dražen Goran Gojko Grgur_Gregory Grubeša Djordje_George Djuradj_George Hrelja Hvalimir Ilija Ivaniš_John Jakša Jagoš Jovan_John Jakov_Jacob Jug Konstantin_Constantine Lazar Miloš_Milosz Mladen Mutimir Marko_Marcus Matija_Matthew Mihailo_Michael Milutin Miroslav_Miroslav Nemanja Nebojša Novak Nenad Nikola_Nicholas Ognjen Oliver Pavle_Paul Pribislav Predislav Predrag Petar_Peter Prvoslav Radoš Radoslav Radonja Rastko Ratomir Sava Stracimir Strahinja Simeon_Simon Siniša Staniša Stefan_Stephen Tihomir Toljen Uglješa Uroš Vladimir_Vladimir Vladislav_Vladislav Vlastimir Vid Vuk_Lupo Vukan_Lupo Vukašin_Lupo Vukoman_Lupo Vukoslav_Lupo Višeslav Vojislav Vratko Vlatko Vojin Vujadin Zaharije_Zacharias Zoran Žarko

female_names = {
Ana Anastasija Angelina Andjelija Antonija Branimira Biljana Bojana Bogdana Branislava Dubravka Dobroslava Dejana Dragana Dragoslava Dušica Dušana Danica Elena_Helen Gordana Grana Grubana Irina Jadranka Jefimija Jelisaveta Jevdokija Jagoda Jovana Jelisanta Jelena_Helen Karolina Katarina Komnina Ksenija Mara Ljubica Ljiljana Marija_Maria Milena Milica Miroslava Malina Milinka Miljana Mirjana Nada Nataša Natalija Neda Nikolina Olivera Ognjenka Predislava Prvoslava Radoslava Rudjina Simonida Snežana Suzana Stefania Svetlana Teodora Vesna Vukoslava Vojislava Vuka Višeslava Vladislava Vladana Zora Zdenka Zorica

4. Bosnian

male_names = {
Dabiša Crijep Vlatko Vuk_Lupo Vukša_Lupo Vukmir_Lupo Tomaš_Thomas Andrijaš_Andrew Boško Bojan Beloš Branislav Branko Bran Bogdan Branimir Budimir Draško Dražen Dejan Desa Dimitrije_Demetrius Dragoslav Danilo_Daniel Djordje_George Dmitar Dobroslav Dragoš Goran Višeslav Vojislav Raden Radovan Prijezda Ostoja Budislav Matej_Matthew Nikola_Nicholas Grgur_Gregory Grubeša Grdeša Djordje_George Djuradj_George Hvalimir Ilija Ivaniš_John Jovan_John Jug Kulin Konstantin_Constantine Lazar Ljudevit Ljutovid Miloš_Milosz Mladen Mutimir Marko_Marcus Mihailo_Michael Miroslav_Miroslav Nebojša Novak Nenad Tvrtko Stjepan_Stephen Ninoslav Ognjen Oliver Pavle_Paul Pribislav Predislav Petar_Peter Prvoslav Radoslav Ratomir Radomir Stracimir Strahinja Tihomir Toljen Vladimir_Vladimir Vladislav_Vladislav Vlastimir

female_names = {
Ana Anastasija Angelina Branimira Dubravka Elena_Helen Jelena Karolina Marija_Maria Neda Zdenka Vesna Snežana Suzana Andjelija Antonija
Biljana Bojana Bogdana Branislava Dobroslava Dejana Dragana Dragoslava Dušica Dušana Gordana Grana Grubana Irina Jadranka Jefimija Jelisaveta Jevdokija Jagoda Jovana Katarina Komnina Mara Ljubica Milena Milica Miroslava Olivera Radoslava Simonida Teodora Vukoslava Vojislava Vuka Višelsava Malina Milinka Miljana Mirjana Nada

Maybe its not perfect, but its definitely better than original list