HIP and CK2+ just axed Viceroyalties

[mjohnson85]

Replacing major features in a game is not new news though Especially in this game's modding community. This thread needs to die or be moved to the user mods forums (though even there it serves no purpose).

 

[HandicapdHippo]

Viceroyalties where something that sounded cool but in practice I found them to be an annoying and stopped using them pretty quickly.

 

[DorlasAnther]

That nomadic bug has already been fixed. There were few other bugs in that version, which were fixed too. So, saying that bugs are downside of this is pointless, because AFAIK, there are no bugs anymore.

Also, people who say that features from mods have no place in unmodded game are really wrong. I mean, look at vassal focus laws from Conclave. Those started in mods and were implemented into normal CK2. Showing what modders were able to do with some feature as form of suggestion is even better than normal suggestion, because it also shows how it works instead of just ideas.

 

[mjohnson85]

Also, people who say that features from mods have no place in unmodded game are really wrong. I mean, look at vassal focus laws from Conclave. Those started in mods and were implemented into normal CK2. Showing what modders were able to do with some feature as form of suggestion is even better than normal suggestion, because it also shows how it works instead of just ideas.

Mod talk has no place in this forum - there is a reason topics get moved to the DEDICATED mod forums all the time (I mean, this games both even have subforums for their respective communities). Why announce mod specific features for mods which have sub forums specifically for that on the main forums? IF and WHEN they are incorporated, then they will obviously have a place in the UNMODDED game.

Secondly, comparing law sliders with a main, complicated, ***DLC*** feature is not something that should be done. Changing laws is child play, and nearly every mod changes those laws and had the same sliders (or slight variants) that were ported into vanilla - this is not the same at all. Paradox does not fundamentally change DLC features - they may nerf/buff them, but that is the extent. There is literally no reason for this thread to be in this forum. It was an overreaction of the OP thinking the vanilla world was falling because a mod changed something. Lord knows what the general forums would look like if posts like these were made every time a mod changed something.

 

[elvain]

that DLC virtually incorporated mechanics implemented by those 2 mods mentioned, not some child play you speak about. The same goes with other aspects where the game's devs have incorporated ideas and mechanics brought into life in various mods. Especially HIP and CK2+ go far beyond tweaking few modifiers.

Mentioning it in the main forum is reasonable, because it isn't about the mods themselves, but about the main game. You may disagree with their concept or even the fact they exist, but you can't deny the fact that the devs often actually learn from modders how to improve their own game... not speaking about modders who were so skilled that they became PDS developpers.

This thread tries to point out another 2 aspects where the OP thinks the base game could follow these 2 major mods (after it did in several other occasions already). We may not agree with those actual points (removal of some game's content), but insulting the OP and claiming that this belongs purely to modding forum is IMHO no less arrogant and ignorant to others' opinions than asking PDS to remove content from CK2.

 

[mjohnson85]

that DLC virtually incorporated mechanics implemented by those 2 mods mentioned, not some child play you speak about. The same goes with other aspects where the game's devs have incorporated ideas and mechanics brought into life in various mods. Especially HIP and CK2+ go far beyond tweaking few modifiers.

Mentioning it in the main forum is reasonable, because it isn't about the mods themselves, but about the main game. You may disagree with their concept or even the fact they exist, but you can't deny the fact that the devs often actually learn from modders how to improve their own game... not speaking about modders who were so skilled that they became PDS developpers.

This thread tries to point out another 2 aspects where the OP thinks the base game could follow these 2 major mods (after it did in several other occasions already). We may not agree with those actual points (removal of some game's content), but insulting the OP and claiming that this belongs purely to modding forum is IMHO no less arrogant and ignorant to others' opinions than asking PDS to remove content from CK2.

I am going to agree to disagree, primarily because I think you are not approaching this from the same angle as the OP, or the OP did not construe his true intents with the post.

 

[Rylock]

One could perhaps take the change to viceroys as a condemnation of the vanilla viceroy system by both HIP and CK2Plus, sure. If you'd like to see what I said about the system back when this was discussed, it's this:

There is one big issue with the Byzantine Empire currently (though not truly specific to it), and that's the way the CK2 viceroy system works. Which is to say "not well". Viceroys have had a host of issues since they were introduced, and the most the developers have done is band-aid it -- vassals under viceroys can't rebel (period), all things other than the title which would normally go to the primary heir go to the liege (including wealth, opinion mods, and infamy), succession issues if and when the viceroy decides to rebel, and so forth. If you're playing the emperor, you're constantly annoyed with duke titles you have to reassign upon the viceroy's death, a problem which gets worse as you get larger, and forget trying to play a vassal in the empire.

Do I blame them? Not really. It's easy to see what they were trying to do with the system, and the only real way to fix it is to dump the entire thing and start over, which requires an investment of time and resources they're unlikely to devote when they have so much else on their plate. This does leave us, however, with a system that's never quite worked and has forced us to code around so many times the worth of it as a whole is brought into question.

What I say about Paradox remains true. I don't blame them for not investing the time and resources into dumping the system and starting over, when overall the system works "well enough" for what they want it to do. It would be a lot of effort expended for relatively little gain. For our part, it was just something we could replace and so did, for the reasons named.

Insofar as India goes, I don't think that's something you can really put on the same level. I'm not going to speak for HIP, but for Plus's part it was something that was taken out by default to get the processing power it requires back -- because Plus adds a lot of content which slows the game down. India's a relatively easy sacrifice, since Paradox added it in RoI and has done relatively nothing with it since, and neither has Plus. A lot of people like it, however. Even if they don't play it, they like the idea of it being there. The poll we put up to gauge how much interest there was in India showed what I took as a surprising amount of support for it -- even in a mod that's slowed down way more by its presence than vanilla is -- which is why Plus is also maintaining a sub-mod which keeps India in, for those who want it. So saying we "got rid of it" is a stretch.

tl;dr: I wouldn't take what CK2Plus and HIP are doing with these two areas as symbolic of much. Take it with a big grain of salt.

 

[kmh42]

@mjohnson85
I admit it, this was clearly not a very insightful what I wrote but I didn't knew that I piss someone so much off, like you.
This threat belongs here because the theme is viceroyalties. Yes I added something that had something to do with mods but this doesn't imminently disqualifies it from this forum. The reason I posted it in here was, not everyone reads the change logs of a HIP or CK2+ releases. And I was thinking some would appreciate when they hear about the resent changes to viceroyalties/imperial-Goverment. When you don't appreciate it, dislike it and move on!

that DLC virtually incorporated mechanics implemented by those 2 mods mentioned, not some child play you speak about. The same goes with other aspects where the game's devs have incorporated ideas and mechanics brought into life in various mods. Especially HIP and CK2+ go far beyond tweaking few modifiers.

Mentioning it in the main forum is reasonable, because it isn't about the mods themselves, but about the main game. You may disagree with their concept or even the fact they exist, but you can't deny the fact that the devs often actually learn from modders how to improve their own game... not speaking about modders who were so skilled that they became PDS developpers.

This thread tries to point out another 2 aspects where the OP thinks the base game could follow these 2 major mods (after it did in several other occasions already). We may not agree with those actual points (removal of some game's content), but insulting the OP and claiming that this belongs purely to modding forum is IMHO no less arrogant and ignorant to others' opinions than asking PDS to remove content from CK2.

thx

One could perhaps take the change to viceroys as a condemnation of the vanilla viceroy system by both HIP and CK2Plus, sure. If you'd like to see what I said about the system back when this was discussed, it's this:



What I say about Paradox remains true. I don't blame them for not investing the time and resources into dumping the system and starting over, when overall the system works "well enough" for what they want it to do. It would be a lot of effort expended for relatively little gain. For our part, it was just something we could replace and so did, for the reasons named.

Insofar as India goes, I don't think that's something you can really put on the same level. I'm not going to speak for HIP, but for Plus's part it was something that was taken out by default to get the processing power it requires back -- because Plus adds a lot of content which slows the game down. India's a relatively easy sacrifice, since Paradox added it in RoI and has done relatively nothing with it since, and neither has Plus. A lot of people like it, however. Even if they don't play it, they like the idea of it being there. The poll we put up to gauge how much interest there was in India showed what I took as a surprising amount of support for it -- even in a mod that's slowed down way more by its presence than vanilla is -- which is why Plus is also maintaining a sub-mod which keeps India in, for those who want it. So saying we "got rid of it" is a stretch.

tl;dr: I wouldn't take what CK2Plus and HIP are doing with these two areas as symbolic of much. Take it with a big grain of salt.

I just blame them a little bit.

That India thing was a little overstretch from my side. I just was a little sad about the fact, that you guys removed it from the default install. I was one of those who upvoted it. But you have you reasons for sure.

Thank you for you point of view

 

[mjohnson85]

Again though, if you want to discuss adding things like this into vanilla, that's fine but should belong in the suggestions forum. But you just said you posted this as an announcement for a mod, which simply doesn't belong here. I am not pissed about it, I am just using logic. As several people have said, this thread serves no purpose with its clearly stated intent. People who play those mods go to their subforums where that mod's announcements belong. Have you ever seen the CK2+ or HIP team come to the general forums and post announcements? Is that any different? They don't even do that in the general user mod forums.

I have nothing against either team, as their team members are all fantastic people of the community and have personally helped me (as has Elvain).

To be clear, you've said the intent is an announcement for a mod because people don't read release notes. This has nothing to do with what Elvain said, whom I also respect, which is why I disagreed with him. He brought up a completely different argument.

 

[kmh42]

Again though, if you want to discuss adding things like this into vanilla, that's fine but should belong in the suggestions forum. But you just said you posted this as an announcement for a mod, which simply doesn't belong here.

Oh man. You have to see that I didn't really thought much about this thread before I posted it. I mixed up (bad) features, mods, announcements and rant in 3 rows and was hoping someone is appreciating this.

I am not pissed about it, I am just using logic.

The tone your posts have and the fact that you insistently try to get rid of this (now) worthless thread makes me disbelieve that.

 

[elvain]

@mjohnson85
There are many threads, even here, where people are asking about major mods and their comparison to vanilla. They indeed do belong here, because unlike in modding community only here you can put together oponions of people who use mods with those who don't.

Yes, I was wrong, this thread originaly wasn't what I thought it to be after reading further posts, but it clearly was an attempt to catch people's interest in those 2 mods.
Does it belong here? I do believe it does, because when people talk about removing India or ask for some change in the base game and somebody tells them that they can use mods, these posts have their legitimacy aswell. They spread awarness about mods and modding community and what it can offer, which is positive for both game users, the modders as well as the game itself (many people do indeed buy DLCs mainly, or exclusively because of these 2 particular mods mentioned here - HIP and CK2+).

The people like Rylock, zijistark or other mod makers don't come here to propagate their work, instead they work hard on improving this game. It is their fans who help to promote those mods (sometimes they even do the oposite while trying to help). No need to jump on these people for that (like there's no need to attack or accuse of fanboyism those people who simply like the base game and don't like whinning about how this or that should be replaced/removed or whatever). They're trying to promote/defend something they like and they found useful.
Nothing wrong about that.

 

[Fulmen]

PS: CK2+ also hacked India! So no complete India in non of the major Overhaul Mods!

Not true. They just made India into a sub-mod that is downloaded along with the main mod.

Personally I would've done it vice versa though; keep India in the main mod and make a sub-mod for those who want to play without it.

 

[The Duke of GTFO]

India is disgusting.

 

[Rylock]

Not true. They just made India into a sub-mod that is downloaded along with the main mod.

Personally I would've done it vice versa though; keep India in the main mod and make a sub-mod for those who want to play without it.

I believe the initial intent was to simply cut it entirely, and leave an India sub-mod to be maintained or not by the community. Seeing as there was so much support for its existence, the Plus team opted to maintain the support for the India sub-mod themselves...though my prediction is that most users will simply not use it, as the performance increase without India is substantial.

 

[Grish]

Who would have guessed India decreased performance

 

[Talq]

This isn't the major news that you imagine it is. Do remember the 'major' mods have minisule userbases compared with everybody who plays this game. The devs were aware from day 1 that some people did not like India. It doesn't matter - you can't undo a DLC people have paid for. So people who don't want India but want 12 provinces in Iceland and hundreds scattered over the Sahara desert have something to play. Good for them.

I've paid less attention to the special government for the special tag brigade, but same applies.

 

[Grish]

Of course its not major news,anyone that wasnt full of utter bs knew it decreased performance from day one.


I dont think we paid for the map expansion of India did we?Wasnt it a free turd thrown in?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

The DLC only enables playing Indian Religions, the subcontinent came with the patch. Since all checksum-related data have to be in the patch in their programming model (so people with and without DLC could play together), everyone got their India, whether they want it or not. If Paradox ever found out a way to make titles, provinces, characters, and religions dependent on a DLC like events and interface do, we would be able to turn India off and maybe see a China DLC.

 

[kmh42]

It's not big news. That's why I only mention it in the PS. The actual news is that they remove viceroyalties.

Not true. They just made India into a sub-mod that is downloaded along with the main mod.

Personally I would've done it vice versa though; keep India in the main mod and make a sub-mod for those who want to play without it.

I will edit the OP to set it right.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I believe the initial intent was to simply cut it entirely, and leave an India sub-mod to be maintained or not by the community. Seeing as there was so much support for its existence, the Plus team opted to maintain the support for the India sub-mod themselves...though my prediction is that most users will simply not use it, as the performance increase without India is substantial.

For me it will depend on the game. If I play a Central Asian or Middle Eastern dynasty India is a nice alternate expansion route. If I play in Europe, then no.