Highly lazy but educated and other numbers.

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

PablowAugust

Second Lieutenant
3 Badges
Nov 23, 2023
137
144
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Surviving Mars
One of the mods i use from Thunderstore is Info loom. It gives great insights on numbers in the game. These 2 stats revealed a secret to me. Graduated university students are lazy. I have been watching for real time minutes (days in game) but they dont seem to be running to get the jobs. I placed 2 waterfall offices when i noticed near 900 unemployed. first 600 went smoothly but now it's like they have to be forced to go to work.

highly lazy.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
Reactions:
One of the mods i use from Thunderstore is Info loom. It gives great insights on numbers in the game. These 2 stats revealed a secret to me. Graduated university students are lazy. I have been watching for real time minutes (days in game) but they dont seem to be running to get the jobs. I placed 2 waterfall offices when i noticed near 900 unemployed. first 600 went smoothly but now it's like they have to be forced to go to work.

View attachment 1082075
There is a cooldown in job search process (CitizenFindJobSystem) which is kCoolDown = 20000; it means cims attemot to find a job approx. every 2h in-game. And there is also a random roll that is based on ratio between free workplaces and "eployable people". In your case it is approx. 30% chance per one roll. So, you can calculate how much time it takes to get jobs for 300 people. A lot...
 
  • 4
Reactions:
Can someone explain the numbers in the demand view provided by Infoloom. I was wondering if i could actually have 352 empty small houses, but then i saw industrial number for it and i am pretty sure i dont have 3845 empty industrial buildings . Any idea what the numbers represent?


View attachment 1082207
These are composite metrics designed by devs to eventually calculate Demand. They are pretty complex to explain but basically they are "uncapped" i.e. they give raw info about "importance" of each factor. Final demand is limited to <0;100>.
I developed other windows in Info Loom to better understand demand and these numbers. E.g. "Commercial Data' presents actual real data that is then converted into the demand factors and finally into Commercial Demand.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
I developed other windows in Info Loom to better understand demand and these numbers. E.g. "Commercial Data' presents actual real data that is then converted into the demand factors and finally into Commercial Demand.
First of all thanks for this nice mod.

I am gonna guess about the red numbers and i hope you will correct me when i am wrong.

Leisure means i need more parks etc.
Sales means i fail miserably in building shopping facilities.
Local Demand. 60% is imported?
input utilization : no idea. resources produced vs. used, perhaps?

I wonder what a propertyless company is. Steve Jobs in his garage? ;)

red and green numbers i wonder about is residential : do i actually have 36 empty properties or is this another number i need to divide and Medium and High seem to have empty buildings too but are green.


overview.jpg
CS Demand.jpg
 
This is an area of the simulation that's frustrating to me. My resource extractors are literally begging for highly educated employees and there are zero highly educated people interested out of a workforce of 16,591 highly educated people employed elsewhere. ZERO. You'd think that someone somewhere out of those thousands would decide that going into Forestry or Oil Extraction or Farming would be somehow worthwhile. I've even tried putting subway stops out there, parking lots, you can literally walk out your door in suburbia, hop on a subway, and go directly to a resource extractor that is begging for you. Just begging. But no. The number remains at zero.

It's kind of how you build a single family or row house in a neighborhood with green suitability for that type and as soon as the property is under construction, nobody has even moved in yet, the "rent too high" icon appears. How can the rent already be too high when no one even lives there yet?

High density residential follows no discernible pattern that I can follow. One moment, demand is through the roof. Later on, without changing any zoning anywhere in the city, many of these same buildings become abandoned. It's the same with medium density. The only building type that seems to reliably get demanded is single family. It's omnipresent, always there.

When I do make zoning changes, I do it very slowly, block by block, and watch the numbers move. Sometimes when demand is high in low/med/hi all at the same time you can zone a block somewhere and see the numbers move. You can see people moving out of their single family homes and into medium or high density. Sometimes when high density is full, it seems like citizens will start considering medium density. But other times, the behavior is completely baffling. Without adding any new zoning of any type anywhere on the map and just letting the simulation run, demand for medium and high density residential can remain stagnant for literal hours of game time. I will just watch a YouTube video on my other computer and check back every now and again to see what's happening in my city. Other than the cars moving at a glacial pace, but sometimes the simulation speeds up a bit and then slows back down. All the while, people are for reasons I am not informed about or have any way to discern are still crashing the housing market, abandoning high density and medium density, all the while somehow my population continues to slowly increase. It just makes no sense. I have no idea what's happening and that's frustrating.

Hadn't set out to vent but that's kind of where this comment landed. I just want to understand this game. Mods and developer mode help somewhat but I'm still left completely baffled about basic aspects of how the game works. Why does demand remain stagnant for so long? Why is it that zoning types that are demanded seems to make no difference at all? Where does the demand for anything in this game actually come from? Why is it that sometimes the population of my city only increases by +350/hour but other times it's +1500 or +2000, without me ever changing anything whatsoever? Same old city, I did nothing but watch, and demand comes and goes with the wind.

Probably gonna go find something else to do the rest of the day, this is becoming less fun.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Leisure means i need more parks etc.
Sales means i fail miserably in building shopping facilities.
Local Demand. 60% is imported?
input utilization : no idea. resources produced vs. used, perhaps?

I wonder what a propertyless company is. Steve Jobs in his garage? ;)

red and green numbers i wonder about is residential : do i actually have 36 empty properties or is this another number i need to divide and Medium and High seem to have empty buildings too but are green.
It is difficult to explain everything. I want to add tooltips to each number but I don't know yet how to make them in CS2 UI... Or maybe I will write some one-pagers

Leisure/Sales - there are 2 params, sales cap & service util, sales capacity is easier - it is ratio of your well Sales capacities to the consumption of your cims, e.g. 50% means that your cims consume 1000 but you can only sell 500; service utilization is a bit unclear to me, I think it has to do with number of customers, e.g. if there are actually customers in your facilities.

The red and green are related to impact on demand - red means negative demand, green means positive demand

LocalDemand - no it is the other way around, here you produce MORE than needed, aka 60% can be exported; that is why it is red - it has negative impact on demand, because you produce too much; please note however that these are average numbers based on all resources, in small cities even 1 factory can heavily impact this, they are much more meaningful in bigger cities, with hundreds of companies

Input utilization is actually VERY important - it influences heavily what companies are spawned, it says if you have enough resources as INPUT to produce the desired amount, so the other side of the coin to LocalDemand; 123% means that you require more input resources than you have, so you need to import them aka you should slow down with your industry - again, this is why it is red.

Propertyless - isn't than a word in English? I am not a native speaker :) Anyway, this is what theu are called in the code. Companies than are there in the city but have no property; once the new buildings will spawn, they will be the first to occupy them.

In residentual 36 is actual number of empty homes. I tried to add % where there is ratio. Anyway, you have 90 total, 10% of it is 9. So you have MORE than optimum, hence no demand.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
It's kind of how you build a single family or row house in a neighborhood with green suitability for that type and as soon as the property is under construction, nobody has even moved in yet, the "rent too high" icon appears. How can the rent already be too high when no one even lives there yet?
The building animation is just a visual trick. The building is spawned immediately and cims move in immmediately. So it possible that while the animation still plays, the process that calculates rent is executed and the game pops up the warning. Consequences of parallelism and multithreading, courtesy of DOTS.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Propertyless - isn't than a word in English? I am not a native speaker

You're doing great, and your posts in this forum have been immensely helpful. I am glad that there are people out there that have something of a handle for how this game works under the hood because I sure don't. I am hopeful that we see patches that address these gameplay mechanics and help us players make informed decisions about how to develop our cities. I'm sure I do tons of stuff that's unhelpful or unproductive to city building but there's just not a lot of great information out there on things like 'best practices'.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
I wonder if it is even possible to build the perfect city, but if you dont try you never know.

One more question about Info Loom. Is there a reason there is no info about financials?
The reason called “it takes time to develop and test this stuff” xD

Seriously though, I prioritized stuff that I found most lacking in the game’s UI like better info about jobs and workforce, then I wanted to better understand demand.

What kind of “financial info” you’d like to have that is not available currently?
 
These are composite metrics designed by devs to eventually calculate Demand. They are pretty complex to explain but basically they are "uncapped" i.e. they give raw info about "importance" of each factor. Final demand is limited to <0;100>.
I developed other windows in Info Loom to better understand demand and these numbers. E.g. "Commercial Data' presents actual real data that is then converted into the demand factors and finally into Commercial Demand.
Ugh, the numbers look like they are just summed up and then truncated into the 0..100 interval.
With some numbers going to multiple thousands, it's no wonder that the demand swings wildly or does not budge at all - the interval is just too small to land in. I suspect that some factors are completely irrelevant after a while, as they will not scale with city size.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The reason called “it takes time to develop and test this stuff” xD

Seriously though, I prioritized stuff that I found most lacking in the game’s UI like better info about jobs and workforce, then I wanted to better understand demand.

What kind of “financial info” you’d like to have that is not available currently?
hmm, good reason and question. I think some things might fit better in Extended Tooltip, but work in overview too.
  • Income per transport type (bus, train, etc.) Extended tooltip would work for view per single vehicle but still handy to decide which transport to focus on.
  • income per parking lot (long list of different parking lots and their income, enforcing people to rename those lots. :D ) <= Extended tooltip would work for view per lot, but a list would work too.
  • income and tax per region.
  • expenses of services split per object.
services.jpg
 
I wonder if it is even possible to build the perfect city, but if you dont try you never know.

I'd settle for just knowing if something I was trying to do was a Bad Idea or based on a misunderstanding of game mechanics. I'm fond of the expression "In order to know when to break the rules you must first understand the rules".
 
  • 1
Reactions:
How do you define a "perfect city"? Once we establish the criteria, then we'll see :)
I think there are as many perfect cities as there are players.

  • enviromental friendly ( solar or windpower, I think there is even an achievement for it)
  • industrial perfect. little or no surplus on resources, no jams at the cargo spots, no abandoned storages
  • logistical perfect. Every car drives directly from A to B without any traffic jam.
  • totally self supplying. (I tried before the Export bug was fixed because If you dont want mine, i dont want yours)
funny ones :
  • Busses as only public transport without trafficjams or dissolving busses. This might actually work pretty good with ->
  • No cars. When you dont connect a normal traffic connection to your road network there will be no private cars. Up to you if you let them walk or make a public transport system. I can tell you cims like to walk.
  • i read someone tried this one. only gravelroads.
  • Pedestrian Paradise. only pedestrian streets. with or without solid public transport. Once again cims love to walk.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: