Higher religious empathy

[moscal]

Situation. Poland, Bohemy and Germany. Poland and Germany are catholics; Bohemy is cathars. Poland loses war with Bohemy and is plundered by the Vikings and baltic pagans. Whad do Germans? Germans invade Poland. In next generation Germany loses war with Bohemy and is plundered by the Vikings and Balts.

Generally, I often see that instead of helping members of own religion - many lords prefer to attack a weakened member of their own group. As a result, countries in style "antemurale christianitatis" are falling, because they are constantly attacked by infidels and faithful (eg. Catholics attack Catholic because he is weakened by a heavy war with pagans and heretics). Should be higher religious sympathy for any antemurale - supportn, help or simple non-interference

 

[Fire6all]

You are idealistic your proposal is the dream of all of the catholic Kings, but in reality, historically, it was a joke !

I've an exemple for you :
In the third ( I think ) crusade, Phillip Augustus from France and Richard Lion's heart were fighting against muslims. Barbarossa was here too, but he took the bad decision to try swimming in armor . After taking Acre, Phillip, saying that he was sick, went back to France, and Richard continued to Jerusalem. When Richard came back, Phillip payed the Archiduke of Austria to maintain Richard in prison. And profiting of the absence of the strong Richard on the throne, replaced by the ( weaker ) John, he seized Normandy. What a great king for my country !

Good exemple of Catholic relations in Crudades against heretics...

 

[Rags17]

But 'Germany invades Poland' is the default German operating procedure !

 

[Fire6all]

In fact it looks normal : in CK you are as opportunist as possible. You take any occasion to increase your personal demesne. If you want to be a good player, you have to understand as soon as possible that in this game there is no :
Justice
Illequal procedures
Friends
Respect

And so on...

 

[moscal]

Therefore I wrote "higher" - not "absolute".

But in game I often have neverending knife in the back, which in the end leads to the loss of "bridgeheads". Visigoths are fighting against the Muslim power and have a big chances to win? As the emperor of France, X declare war because a random courtier has a claim on one barony. Spain becomes completely Muslim, except for one barony. Ot other situation - Slavs win GHW of Khazaria and small chief become a king of Khazaria. He fights with nomads and Georgians by X years and can win defensive wars. But in X+1 year neighbors-Slavs attack, because of several provinces. Slavic pagan reformed doesn't develop. All in observe mode.

 

[moscal]

In fact it looks normal : in CK you are as opportunist as possible. You take any occasion to increase your personal demesne. If you want to be a good player, you have to understand as soon as possible that in this game there is no :

Similar like a all Pdxian strategies... But at least I want to see any chance for events like a "spanish reconquista". Not always "yellow blob and blue blob and purple blob and abbablob and grey blob have wars and all others must die" etc. This shouldn't be only "map-painting"...

BTW - I have more pleasure when I play a role than when I exploit and paint a map. But AI have too great focus on short-time conquest.

 

[Fire6all]

You're right, I play like you. But I think that it is impossible to learn to AI what is "discipline" and "history"

 

[moscal]

You're right, I play like you. But I think that it is impossible to learn to AI what is "discipline" and "history"

Is I remember EU1 and EU2, where AI in 80% cases try work historical. But this is other story

In this case would be enough to add some modifiers for AI to reducing interest in attacking believers when this one has big problems with infidels.

 

[Fire6all]

I played EU 1 for over 2 years, and EU 2 ( For the Glory ) the same time. So don't worry I know what you are talking about. And ( to my mind ) it is not the same thing !

In the first EU, there are lots of events, and more than that there is claimed and national provinces. So here the AI was guided not to have an historical behavior, only an intelligent behavior. But intelligent behavior is to take those provinces I was talking about. It results than the AI was more or less respecting history.
In CK2, there aren't all of those kind of events. From the start date to the end, you are free, and can do everything : conquering Norway with Spain, and so on. My advice is that in CK2 the AI shows the real thoughts of this time : extend yourself by all the possible ways. Respect the Pope wishes, but try to get advantages for it. When a war is lose for a neighbor, join the party and try to grab your part of the monster. It's terrible and unfair. It's medieval life

The empathy you propose should be only given to the characters with zealous/kind. It is, I think, more realistic

 

[moscal]

Not fully.

Eg. Poland 1038. Great pagan rebellion in Poland plus Greater Poland is plundering by king of Bohemy (i.a. he stole first relics in Poland - Saint Wenceslas; great golden cross of Mieszko I, weighing three times as much as a human). What do other rulers? King of Hungary (Stephan I) didn't react; Yaroslav the Wise helped for polish monarch in the fight against pagan rebellion; Henry III, Emperor of HRE, give soldiers, money and diplomatic support (he forced Bohemians to stop plundering, revoke previously occupied lands for Poland and several relics). In CK2 realion - in 1038 Poland should be partitione.

So IRL not always was "We are only interested in conquest and nothing more".

 

[Fire6all]

The help of Yaroslavl was due to a wedding, and for the HRE, the interest was to have more control on Bohemia. I told you : there is always another reason

 

[moscal]

The help of Yaroslavl was due to a wedding, and for the HRE, the interest was to have more control on Bohemia. I told you : there is always another reason

Another reason so only motivation is not just the thirst of provinces In CK2 de facto for AI is important only thirst of provinces.

 

[Fire6all]

I didn't say that the only motivation is thirst of probince, I just said that the thirst of province was coming before everything else

You're right, the de jure is important for AI

I think that this debate is endless

 

[Tryvenyal]

Actually, it will cost you piety to attack a same- faith believer if he is a defensive war with heathens/heretics. But as a response to the peace... definatly!!

 

[Fire6all]

Actually, it will cost you piety to attack a same- faith believer if he is a defensive war with heathens/heretics !

It is already the case : declare a war against a defender of your religion in a holy war is forbidden

 

[moscal]

It is already the case : declare a war against a defender of your religion in a holy war is forbidden

Nope. Here you eg. have script for "claim CB". Lack info about "this isn't possible when target have is defender during the holy war" (HW is definited as "religious"). Others CB also.

claim = {
   name = CB_NAME_CLAIM
   war_name = WAR_NAME_CLAIM
   sprite = 1
   truce_days = 3650
   hostile_against_others = yes
   can_ask_to_join_war = no

   allowed_to_target_tributaries = no
 
   press_claim = yes

   infamy_modifier = 0.85
 
   can_use_title = {
       OR = {
           ROOT = { is_female = no }
           NOT = { ROOT = { religion_group = muslim } }
       }
       OR = {
           FROM = {
               has_landed_title = PREV
           }
           holder_scope = {
               is_liege_or_above = FROM
           }
       }
     
       ROOT = {
           OR = {
               is_ruler = no
               primary_title = {
                   OR = {
                       is_primary_type_title = no # Static Mercs, the Pope, Holy Orders, etc
                       higher_tier_than = PREVPREV
                       tier = PREVPREV
                   }
               }
           }
       }
     
       OR = {
           ROOT = { has_strong_claim = PREV }
           ROOT = { has_character_flag = claimant_adventurer  }
           AND = {
               ROOT = { has_weak_claim = PREV }
               OR = {
                   is_pretender = yes # Checks vs ROOT character
                   holder_scope = { has_regent = yes }
                   AND = {
                       ROOT = { OR = { is_female = no has_law = status_of_women_4 } }
                       holder_scope ={ AND = { is_female = yes NOR = { has_law = status_of_women_4 has_game_rule = { name = gender value = all } } } }
                   }
                   is_contested = yes # Is already being contested in some form of Claim or Succession War
               }
           }
       }
   }

   is_valid_title = {
       OR = {
           FROM = {
               has_landed_title = PREV
           }
           holder_scope = {
               is_liege_or_above = FROM
           }
       }
       ROOT = { has_claim = PREV }
   }

   on_add = {
       if = {
           limit = { defender = { is_offmap_governor = offmap_china } }
           attacker = {
               sound_effect = china_angered_emperor
               detract_grace_super_huge_effect = yes
           }
       }
   }

   on_success_title = {
 
       hidden_tooltip = {
           ROOT = {
               clr_character_flag = claimant_adventurer
               if = {
                   limit = {
                       has_nickname = no
                       lower_tier_than = PREV
                   }
                   random = {
                       chance = 50
                       give_nickname = nick_the_usurper
                   }
               }
           }
       }
 
       usurp_title_plus_barony_if_unlanded = { target = ROOT type = claim }
     
       if = {
           limit = {
               higher_tier_than = BARON
               NOT = { culture = ROOT }
           }
           hidden_tooltip = { conquest_culture = ROOT }
       }
     
       ROOT = {
           participation_scaled_prestige = 100
       }
       any_attacker = {
           limit = { NOT = { character = ROOT } }
           hidden_tooltip = { participation_scaled_prestige = 100 }
       }
     
       FROM = {
           prestige = -100
       }
   }

   on_fail_title = {
       ROOT = {
           prestige = -100
           hidden_tooltip = {
               disband_event_forces = yes
               clr_character_flag = claimant_adventurer
           }
       }
       FROM = {
           participation_scaled_prestige = 100
       }
       any_defender = {
           limit = { NOT = { character = FROM } }
           hidden_tooltip = { participation_scaled_prestige = 100 }
       }
   }

   on_reverse_demand = {
       ROOT = {
           prestige = -150
           transfer_scaled_wealth = {
               to = FROM
               value = 4.0
           }
       }
       if = {
           limit = {
               ROOT = { has_character_flag = claimant_adventurer }
           }
           ROOT = { imprison = FROM }
       }
       FROM = {
           participation_scaled_prestige = 150
       }
       any_defender = {
           limit = { NOT = { character = FROM } }
           hidden_tooltip = { participation_scaled_prestige = 150 }
       }
       hidden_effect = {
           ROOT = {
               if = {
                   limit = {
                       has_landed_title = e_china_west_governor
                   }
                   log = "China War Logging: China lost a claim war against [From.GetBestName]"
               }
               if = { #Makes China have a chance of leaving Expanionist policy...
                   limit = {
                       has_landed_title = e_china_west_governor
                       offmap_china = {
                           has_policy = china_expansionist
                       }
                   }
                   random = {
                       chance = 50
                       offmap_china = {
                           set_policy = china_open
                           log = "-------------------------------------"
                           log = "China Policy Logging:"
                           log = "Chinas new Policy is now OPEN"
                           log = "-------------------------------------"
                       }
                   }
               }
           }
       }
   }

   on_reverse_demand_title = {
       any_claim = {
           remove_claim = ROOT
       }
       ROOT = {
           hidden_tooltip = {
               disband_event_forces = yes
               clr_character_flag = claimant_adventurer
           }
       }
   }
 
   on_attacker_leader_death = {
       if = {
           limit = {
               ROOT = { has_character_flag = EoD_prophet_attacker }
           }
           FROM = { narrative_event = { id = RIP.15116 } }
       }
       if = {
           limit = {
               ROOT = {
                   OR = {
                       has_character_flag = claimant_adventurer
                       has_character_flag = EoD_prophet_attacker
                   }
               }
           }
           ROOT = {
               hidden_tooltip = {
                   disband_event_forces = yes
                   clr_character_flag = claimant_adventurer
                   clr_character_flag = EoD_prophet_attacker
               }
           }
           end_war = invalid
       }

   }

   attacker_ai_victory_worth = {
       factor = -1 # always accept
   }
 
   attacker_ai_defeat_worth = {
       factor = 100
   }

   defender_ai_victory_worth = {
       factor = -1 # always accept
   }
 
   defender_ai_defeat_worth = {
       factor = 100
   }
}

 

[Tryvenyal]

It is already the case : declare a war against a defender of your religion in a holy war is forbidden

Not forbidden. But you have to afford the pietyloss, you can't go minus.

 

[Fire6all]

Wen I saw it I was at 6000 piety : I play well with Poland. Weird. Maybe it was something else, I must be wrong

 

[technowhiz]

This is a little late, but it was the third crusade @Fire6all . And Leopold(the archduke of Austria) was excommunicated for imprisoning a crusader. Maybe if the pope had set behavior for specific situations, such as automatically excommunicating anyone who attacks someone one crusade, or at least a significant opinion malus with him.

 

[Matihood1]

But 'Germany invades Poland' is the default German operating procedure !

Not in the middle ages, no. At least not in the first few centuries of Poland's existence