Hideous Maps

[Sarenarass]

Eh, awh! Oh my. Those times when you ask yourself: How did this happen?


So I was starting a new campaign since I just got Sunset Invasion and I wanted to witness Aztec horror first hand! So I played as the Aftasids... all was going well. Got a good hunk of Spain in less than fourty years. At which point I wondered.. if I typed "observe" and "fow", what would the AI lead my great Emirate to?


100 years later...

Well, England was not where I was hoping. Somehow England conquered most of Iberia along with France. Same old same old. Catholic powers 'colonizing' the Muslim nations...

Holy Roman Empire in Greece... Byzantines randomly have Libya even though they are pretty much collapsed. Teutonic Knights in Wallachia and some far-off province in Russia. Norway is... how? The logistics seem impossible. Egypt collapsed into a mess of small states leaving easy pickings to the Catholics.


This is probably one of the most hideous maps I have set eyes upon! I like all the borders to look... uniform. As if they could've really happened, ya know? NOW, what is your most hideous map?

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

Perchance have you seen the later maps of the HRE? Or even modern day borders between the Netherlands and Belgium?

 

[RustyTurban]

Scotland and Denmark look neat though

 

[IVIaarten]

Perchance have you seen the later maps of the HRE? Or even modern day borders between the Netherlands and Belgium?

like this?

This is the current border between the Netherlands and Belgium in a village
If you want to read about this atrocity: http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/05/15/an-inland-archipelago/

 

[Comradebot]

Then there's the district in India and Bangladesh that looks like this:

 

[Ols]

Personally I think a King should be able to hold titles inside other realms without pulling it out of that realm. In reality if you own a far flung lordship, you aren't going to deny that your subjects there are in turn subjects of the king who rules the lands completely surrounding them. If an English king holds the duchy of Portucale or something without any rational basis I think such a title should find its way out of his ownership through some degree of plotting in his court or via an uprising against his rule with a perfected version of the independence faction system we see now.

Yes, some realms were not continuous, but such realms tended to break up or have complicated situations arise in them that meant national borders became less of a swiss cheese than they tend to end up as now.

 

[ziamatt]

Personally I think a King should be able to hold titles inside other realms without pulling it out of that realm. In reality if you own a far flung lordship, you aren't going to deny that your subjects there are in turn subjects of the king who rules the lands completely surrounding them. If an English king holds the duchy of Portucale or something without any rational basis I think such a title should find its way out of his ownership through some degree of plotting in his court or via an uprising against his rule with a perfected version of the independence faction system we see now.

Yes, some realms were not continuous, but such realms tended to break up or have complicated situations arise in them that meant national borders became less of a swiss cheese than they tend to end up as now.

What if the local lords can choose to contribute taxes and levies to their de jure liege (if one exists) or to their nominal liege depending on who they like more as a liege? Perhaps they could even choose to pay to a strong claimant if they like him better.

 

[Sarenarass]

like this?

This is the current border between the Netherlands and Belgium in a village
If you want to read about this atrocity: http://www.futilitycloset.com/2011/05/15/an-inland-archipelago/

Not saying all modern day borders are perfect, but most seem to be. There are hardly any scenarios of some country having a small sliver of land jet out miles and miles and miles into foreign territory. Most borders are smooth, though this is hard to keep perfect in any game without unfair rules.

Scotland and Denmark look neat though

Denmark in Lithuania is a bit... ergh though. Lol

 

[Rune Welsh]

I'll keep posting links like this until people come to terms with the fact continuous borders were not the rule during the period.

Internal map of the HRE in the 14th century:
http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0030

 

[Ols]

Perhaps, but sometimes the King who inherits some random county will hold the tile forever, or pass it to someone of their culture. They shouldn't be able to pass it to someone from their distant realm, and if they pass it to someone from the area it should become part of the de jure kingdom again (if it exists). Tweaking the independence system more so really wierd holdings become independent and making sure that the entire area gets pulled out of the realm (instead of just the ones the liege chose to delegate) would work well.

 

[Klausewitz]

Not saying all modern day borders are perfect, but most seem to be. There are hardly any scenarios of some country having a small sliver of land jet out miles and miles and miles into foreign territory. Most borders are smooth, though this is hard to keep perfect in any game without unfair rules.



Denmark in Lithuania is a bit... ergh though. Lol

Well, the reason most Europe countries have 'nice' borders is 150 years of war after the rise of nationalism. A lot of blood went into creating those.
Amounts of blood medieval rulers cannot hope to spill in a thousand years.

 

[Sarenarass]

I'll keep posting links like this until people come to terms with the fact continuous borders were not the rule during the period.

Internal map of the HRE in the 14th century:
http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0030

Those borders look pretty intact to me.... Look, I think you all are getting the wrong idea. You are thinking if you have any sort of land that isn't completely uniform that must be wrong. Look at France and Prussia during the Napoleonic era! Both had lines semi-far away in Germany they weren't directly linked to. But did the people in those land become French in two generations? Is Hessen full of French people today? No. Look in my picture. How did Norway extend that low south? That is near impossible in those times. Also, that land they have next to Cumania? They converted it to the Norwegian culture already... and most of Greece is German. That needs to be changed at least. Culture should take a very, very, very, very long time to change. Only with a very small group of exceptions, such as with William the Conqueror. From 1066 to 1337 pretty much all of Italy should still be Italian culture, maybe 1-2 provinces can convert to German... not 5-7 as I often see.

 

[Sarenarass]

Also, you are more referring to individual dukes who refer back to a liege in your picture. AUDIENCE, if you may left click to zoom in on the European map (http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0030) at the bottom right corner... those borders look pretty damn intact, don't they? Nice try.

 

[RustyTurban]

Also, you are more referring to individual dukes who refer back to a liege in your picture. AUDIENCE, if you may left click to zoom in on the European map (http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0030) at the bottom right corner... those borders look pretty damn intact, don't they? Nice try.

England and HRE are blobbing

Also Ottomans are OP

 

[ziamatt]

Those borders look pretty intact to me.... Look, I think you all are getting the wrong idea. You are thinking if you have any sort of land that isn't completely uniform that must be wrong.

You did say that you like all borders to be uniform. I'm not really sure what you mean by that if you think Rune Welsh's borders constitute uniform.

Look at France and Prussia during the Napoleonic era! Both had lines semi-far away in Germany they weren't directly linked to. But did the people in those land become French in two generations? Is Hessen full of French people today? No. Look in my picture. How did Norway extend that low south? That is near impossible in those times. Also, that land they have next to Cumania? They converted it to the Norwegian culture already... and most of Greece is German. That needs to be changed at least. Culture should take a very, very, very, very long time to change. Only with a very small group of exceptions, such as with William the Conqueror. From 1066 to 1337 pretty much all of Italy should still be Italian culture, maybe 1-2 provinces can convert to German... not 5-7 as I often see.

I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from. If the point you were trying to make was that cultural conversion is too rapid it might have helped if culture was mentioned at all in the original post. Otherwise this seems like a non-sequitur. Not that I disagree mind you; I'd like to see a more complex culture system myself and I'd also like to see holy wars result in the formation of crusader states. Just wondering if the culture issue was part of your original complain or something added on just now.

 

[gornard]

http://members.chello.nl/~r.kepper/images/pr1866_k.gif As you can see their are many disgusting borders for prussia. Dynasticism created the mess, its war and nationalism that joins in the gaps.

 

[monsterfurby]

http://members.chello.nl/~r.kepper/images/pr1866_k.gif As you can see their are many disgusting borders for prussia. Dynasticism created the mess, its war and nationalism that joins in the gaps.

Turns out all Frederick the Great wanted in Silesia was to make his border with Austria a little bit neater.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

Turns out all Frederick the Great wanted in Silesia was to make his border with Austria a little bit neater.

I visited the big "Friederisiko" exposition held on the occasion of his 300th birthday in Potsdam this year - they guy was just eccentric enough to make things like this very much plausible

 

[monsterfurby]

I visited the big "Friederisiko" exposition held on the occasion of his 300th birthday in Potsdam this year - they guy was just eccentric enough to make things like this very much plausible

Then again, his father was the guy who had people travelling all over Europe acquiring (read: buying, kidnapping and hiring on rather questionable terms) tall people to put in his favourite doll collec-- I mean guard unit. It seems to run in the family.

Frederick II was cool, though. Eccentric, yeah, but an interesting guy.

 

[Heartsbane]

Haha, yeah I know what you mean. Muslim Iberia is pretty much up for grabs for any strong European power, I kinda welcome it though I'm guilty of this myself. Every time I'm playing a minor kingdom and I see the Muslims taking Northern Spain my first instinct is to hire Holy orders a wreak havoc. You know, I really think that Holy Wars are this games version of Colonization. Christian powers can carve up the Muslim world, you have to convert them, and you have to wait for the culture to swap before they stop being rebellious and annoying, and you can portion out the conquered land however you want. Africa is ripe for the picking after Holy Order become available. All in all I don't mind messy maps in the Muslim world.