HF and celibacy

[Geglash]

Hello,

I have a quick question. Did HF coronation events introduced a new form celibacy trait? My character has accepted papal demand to tak vows of celibacy in return for a coronation. He then joined the benedictine order to renounce these vows, but the option is not present in the intrique decisions. What´s up with that? Is the coronation event cheeseproof?
And what are other ways then to get rid of it then?

Cheers!

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

I haven't had celibacy demanded of me yet, but I heard you cannot remove pope demanded celibacy with the order.

 

[afrodius]

Try joining satanism. If anyone can tempt you back to the pleasures of the flesh it's the devil.

 

[Castimirr]

There is a character flag that the papal celibacy demand sets that blocks the decision to remove it with the society decision. The comment in the code on that line is "No weaseling." The devs know us well.

NOT = {
    has_character_flag = flag_papal_celibacy #No weaseling.
}

 

[vandevere]

Yet another reason for me not to play Ironman...

 

[Zoomun]

Yet another reason for me not to play Ironman...

Because the game is working as intended?

 

[Rags17]

Vanilla celibacy is a choice, Papal celibacy is a locked cock cage with the keys held in the Vatican.

 

[darthsquirt2]

Considering you literally tied your monarchical legitimacy to not having any offspring, it does make sense that you can't just get rid of it. The trade off is the bonuses from a papal crowning against the tasks the Pope demands of you. In this case, a pretty hefty one. You might have instead chosen a lower-tier religious official to crown you.

That said, there ought to be a way to remove it at a hefty price in, say, piety and prestige.

 

[Serenity84]

Nobody is forcing you to have to agree to the Pope's demands. You can always say no

 

[Geglash]

Considering you literally tied your monarchical legitimacy to not having any offspring, it does make sense that you can't just get rid of it. The trade off is the bonuses from a papal crowning against the tasks the Pope demands of you. In this case, a pretty hefty one. You might have instead chosen a lower-tier religious official to crown you.

That said, there ought to be a way to remove it at a hefty price in, say, piety and prestige.

Nobody is forcing you to have to agree to the Pope's demands. You can always say no

Yeah thanks for a lecture. But with this threat, I rather intended to explore the collective mind of this community on game mechanisms and more gamey tactics to add to my repertoire. Would you have any contribution within those lines?

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

This didn't come from me, but the Pope considers Free investiture his #1 threat and will almost always ask you to revoke it as his favor.

 

[Castorem]

It should definitely allow you to get rid of it. But of course at an enormous cost of piety, prestige, opinion with the Pope and a very likely excommunication. But you should absolutely have the choice. I really dislike how Paradox just says: "No, you're not allowed to do that because those are the rules!" Why not just give the player freedom, but make the cost appropriate. I never understood this logic, at least they finally added unjust wars, so that's something I've been wanting for a long time.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Propbably would accept it if you are automatically excommunicated, and your crown revoked. Your basis to rule after all was as a celibate.

It would encourage internal strife, rather fitting given your direct conflict with the Pope. Something like -40 opinion from Catholic rulers/vassals, and annuls non aggression pacts between liege and vassal.

Neighboring realms should also get a prompt from the Pope granting them the Invasion CB on your titles. Understandable given his intense dislike of you flaunting your right to rule.

That, on top of the piety and prestige loss, sounds fairly balanced for basically taking a crap on your very right to rule.

 

[makaramus]

It should definitely allow you to get rid of it. But of course at an enormous cost of piety, prestige, opinion with the Pope and a very likely excommunication. But you should absolutely have the choice. I really dislike how Paradox just says: "No, you're not allowed to do that because those are the rules!" Why not just give the player freedom, but make the cost appropriate. I never understood this logic, at least they finally added unjust wars, so that's something I've been wanting for a long time.

I think problem is its too complicated to follow. doing so also shoul remove "crowned by pope" too since you broke his only demand

 

[Prince Ire]

Are there any historical examples of the Pope forbidding a married person from having sex with their spouse? Because it would seem like the in game system seems to me to completely contradict the medieval idea of the conjugal debt.

For those who don't know, the conjugal debt was the idea that a husband was obligated to have sex with his wife if she wanted it, and vice versa, with spouses bringing their celibate partner to Church court if refusal continued, where punishment could go as far as excommunication. Marriages where no sex occurred were recognized, but both spouses had to mutually agree to it, and I don't think it was ever ordered by the Church hierarchy.

 

[Castimirr]

Yeah it seems like a really, really theologically incorrect request to make of a married ruler, especially early in their reign. I might could understand asking an unmarried character, maybe.

But as a condition for a coronation? No. On top of the theological issues it would be hugely destabilizing to the realm.

That only makes sense if the Pope hates you so much it's just his way of saying "no" by setting the price to something insane.

 

[Seclouds]

That's why the Christian holy orders are full of gay... Why we cant have a event to burn the grandmaster of templor on stick? It's totally historical accuracy, just like the 4th crusader.

 

[TinWiz]

Is there any historical precedent for a pope demanding celibacy to crown a king? That's ridiculous and doesn't fit the Catholic teaching for laymen to "be fruitful and multiply"; it contradicts the purpose of crowning a dynastic king, and creates a frustrating obstacle in a dynastic game that forces players to try to find gamey loopholes around it.

It makes me wonder if Paradox developers have a clue about the religious teachings or just want to make the Papists look like anti-sex fanatics (they weren't but the Cathars were). Puritanism was a lot later than the historical period of this game (after the Protestant Reformation).

 

[Castorem]

Is there any historical precedent for a pope demanding celibacy to crown a king? That's ridiculous and doesn't fit the Catholic teaching for laymen to "be fruitful and multiply"; it contradicts the purpose of crowning a dynastic king, and creates a frustrating obstacle in a dynastic game that forces players to try to find gamey loopholes around it.

It makes me wonder if Paradox developers have a clue about the religious teachings or just want to make the Papists look like anti-sex fanatics (they weren't but the Cathars were). Puritanism was a lot later than the historical period of this game (after the Protestant Reformation).

Yeah it seems like a really, really theologically incorrect request to make of a married ruler, especially early in their reign. I might could understand asking an unmarried character, maybe.

But as a condition for a coronation? No. On top of the theological issues it would be hugely destabilizing to the realm.

That only makes sense if the Pope hates you so much it's just his way of saying "no" by setting the price to something insane.

Are there any historical examples of the Pope forbidding a married person from having sex with their spouse? Because it would seem like the in game system seems to me to completely contradict the medieval idea of the conjugal debt.

For those who don't know, the conjugal debt was the idea that a husband was obligated to have sex with his wife if she wanted it, and vice versa, with spouses bringing their celibate partner to Church court if refusal continued, where punishment could go as far as excommunication. Marriages where no sex occurred were recognized, but both spouses had to mutually agree to it, and I don't think it was ever ordered by the Church hierarchy.

I never thought about it in this way. You guys are completely correct. Paradox should both do more research and in this specific case fix this, as it is not historically accurate.

 

[MentziaIII]

My character has accepted papal demand to tak vows of celibacy in return for a coronation.

Wow ! I was a sad puppy when the Pope demanded my Seamless Robe of Jesus.

That's a ridiculous demand !

Anyway ---

IF you aren't / weren't playing iron man ---

I would try the console command , " pollinate " . I have never checked though to see if that circumvents celibacy.

Or , baring that , give your wife the lustful trait , master seductress or Hedonist , with console command to really jack up fertility and desire , and then hit her with the console command , " Cuckoo " and then don't inquire as to where these children she produces are coming from.

Or , if you are iron man , or balk at console commands , then an outside possibility is to arrange a divorce or the death of your current wife . Replace her with the highest fertility , most lustful type you can find . Hope she screws around a lot , and again don't question where these children come from.

It makes me wonder if Paradox developers have a clue about the religious teachings or just want to make the Papists look like anti-sex fanatics (they weren't but the Cathars were). Puritanism was a lot later than the historical period of this game (after the Protestant Reformation).

Lol , better yet , try explaining to people that you strongly suspect that , despite the monasteries and Holy orders , and compared to the current age , the Middle Ages were a grand age of the libertine.

Or that you strongly suspect that no age has produced more sad , isolated , lonely celibates than the age of the sexual revolution.