I have to agree that a good tutorial for such a complex game will bring a lot of new players to the game. If not for the base game, it will certainly help the sales of the future expansions. Plus, remember - Once bitten, twice shy!
Hey Paradox/Johan! Want to hugely increase your sales?
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Bah, tutorials. Draw inspiration from Civ4's "Civopedia". For the uninitiated: the player could right-click on, essentially, any item and go to a page with a succint explanation of that item. Due to the effectiveness of this system, I never had to play Civ4's tutorial. I could get right into a proper game and have my questions answered without having to alt-tab to a support forum or quit and play a tutorial.
I'm new to EU3. I've been playing a lot, and finding that the game isn't significantly more difficult to understand than Civ4. However, EU3 hides more of its mechanics behind the scenes, which probably creates baffled first impressions.
I'm new to EU3. I've been playing a lot, and finding that the game isn't significantly more difficult to understand than Civ4. However, EU3 hides more of its mechanics behind the scenes, which probably creates baffled first impressions.
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I didn't know how to play until I read a few AARs.
Incorporate an AAR into a tutorial (maybe one where an overambitious Holland dies after 40 years) and BAM.
Incorporate an AAR into a tutorial (maybe one where an overambitious Holland dies after 40 years) and BAM.
I used the tutorials as a starting point, and got a grasp of most of the basics. The best tutorial is to just start playing, enter wars, do stuff and see what happens and learn from that. That's what I have done, I've only finished one campaign so far, but I learned so much from that one campaign. I would say the tutorials were more than good enough for me, at least.
I play the serie since EUI is born, and this game had a true tutorial : there was a mini scenario in which you had to do the most basic things, like creating, moving units, boats, war, peace, economy etc... it was the base, but it was well explained, you were doing it yourself, and with that i could start to play a normal game knowing what to do and most importantly why. It took me years to learn the details, and i still learn, but i could have fun since the first game at least.
I don't call a serie of screenshots with comments a tutorial. Who will remeber it, and how can it be useful when you have no picture of what to do and why ?
The tutorial of heart of iron III is the best example of something which won't help at all a new player. Sadly it's not the only case. The OP is very right, a good interactive tutorial is extremly important for new players.
You, veterans, have truely hard time to understand/remember what being a new player is.
New players have no idea of the mechanisms, the purpose of the game, they have never heard of paradox, the forum, the community, the strategy guide...
I don't call a serie of screenshots with comments a tutorial. Who will remeber it, and how can it be useful when you have no picture of what to do and why ?
The tutorial of heart of iron III is the best example of something which won't help at all a new player. Sadly it's not the only case. The OP is very right, a good interactive tutorial is extremly important for new players.
You, veterans, have truely hard time to understand/remember what being a new player is.
New players have no idea of the mechanisms, the purpose of the game, they have never heard of paradox, the forum, the community, the strategy guide...
Better tutorials for gaining new casual gamers and thus sales for the future survival of Paradox - sure. But for the fanbase at the moment which is mostly intelligent enough to do without? Not necessary, but not bad either.
Personally I love to "jump" into games and just do everything wrong the first time. Unless it's as complex as HoI3 which in fact does have a decent tutorial.
Personally I love to "jump" into games and just do everything wrong the first time. Unless it's as complex as HoI3 which in fact does have a decent tutorial.
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The best tutorial would be an AAR of sorts, like the HTTT dev Byz AAR. Show the basics of the game in an example that is easy to follow, with explanations as to why it was done that way. Perhaps two of them from different people with entirely different playing styles. Use countries like Castille and France to make it fairly easy going at the start, and play for the first 50 years or so. Watching (or reading about) actual gameplay and the thinking behind the decisions made is the best tutorial any new player could ever receive for this game.
I have hard time to understand where your problems lie and I am hardly a veteran (EU3 was my first game). After one or two test plays, you are good to go.
I can fully understand the OP's argument. That some people can function/learn/play without a good tutorial is fine for them, but if this forum shows anything at all it's just how different players can be.
In reading through this, the idea of an AAR style walk through would be very nice. I can't recall exactly as it was long ago, but I believe Age of Empires (???) used William Wallace as a tutorial story line. I played that tutorial through more than once, as I found it very helpful as well as somewhat entertaining.
If something positive comes from all of this, it can only help future players. I don't see any downside to that at all no matter what method you use to learn.
Though I hope the manuals are still as good...
T
In reading through this, the idea of an AAR style walk through would be very nice. I can't recall exactly as it was long ago, but I believe Age of Empires (???) used William Wallace as a tutorial story line. I played that tutorial through more than once, as I found it very helpful as well as somewhat entertaining.
If something positive comes from all of this, it can only help future players. I don't see any downside to that at all no matter what method you use to learn.
Though I hope the manuals are still as good...
T
This!! An in game encyclopedia like Civ would be perfect. You could make it moddable like Civ's is and turn it into a sort of in game wiki as well.
I have to agree with the spirit of thir thread's first post. Is not only about tutorials, is about making easy to get into the game.
Any time I play EU3 I really have a good time. But I also had a very hard time learning the game's mechanics. I had to put lot of effort to understand basic mechanics. Now I am glad I did, but I wouldn't blame any player if he didn't want to invest all that time.
To make a comparison, you have book A, that starts interesting from the first page and stays interesting during all the story. Then, there is book B (written by Paradox) which is a lot better than book A, but starts with 100 boring pages. The reader knows that if he manages to pass those 100 pages, things will get very very exciting on page 101, but maybe he will decide he doesn't want to.
With other strategy games the learning curve is easier. They usually have campaigns wich introduce concepts step by step (like Warcraft 3) or start small with a few units (like Civilization) and slowly develop in a more complex game. Paradox really needs to improve in that area of its games.
And please understand it is not just bashing the game. As I said, I really enjoy it, but I am pointing the weakest part of the game. If Paradox improves this part, the game will benefit a lot from a lot more funs and popularity.
Please note that I am not talking about simplifying the game. I am talking about making easier to get into the game.
Any time I play EU3 I really have a good time. But I also had a very hard time learning the game's mechanics. I had to put lot of effort to understand basic mechanics. Now I am glad I did, but I wouldn't blame any player if he didn't want to invest all that time.
To make a comparison, you have book A, that starts interesting from the first page and stays interesting during all the story. Then, there is book B (written by Paradox) which is a lot better than book A, but starts with 100 boring pages. The reader knows that if he manages to pass those 100 pages, things will get very very exciting on page 101, but maybe he will decide he doesn't want to.
With other strategy games the learning curve is easier. They usually have campaigns wich introduce concepts step by step (like Warcraft 3) or start small with a few units (like Civilization) and slowly develop in a more complex game. Paradox really needs to improve in that area of its games.
And please understand it is not just bashing the game. As I said, I really enjoy it, but I am pointing the weakest part of the game. If Paradox improves this part, the game will benefit a lot from a lot more funs and popularity.
Please note that I am not talking about simplifying the game. I am talking about making easier to get into the game.
I can agree the tutorials could get better, but the tutorials are not really stopping me from enjoying the game.
When I get a Paradox game I tend to load it up, get intimidated by the new GUI, try to figure out how to play the game on my own, usually screw up royally and then come to the forums or check the wiki for answers to my questions.
So the tutorials are not keeping me from enjoying the game, but if they were a little better I might play them first. Then again I may not as I try to learn via hands on experience and then check the wiki or the forums for answers to my questions.
Thanks for your response, Johan. I'll keep buying Paradox games regardless, and this isn't an issue that affects my own enjoyment all that much, but I'd be thrilled for the games to become huge sellers.
Also one very favored method of selling games is to put a hot chick with big tits wearing bikini "plate" on the front of the game packaging.(this does not need to have anything to do with the actual game) If it actually increases sales or the guys in the sales department are perverts is not known to me :rofl:
Just ask the guys from Evony... They abuse the concept that sex sell...
Every time you sign a royal marriage with someone, you could get to see a variety of Biowaresque vids.
Possibly of a woman showing her ankle, or something equally vulgar.
exactly, there is just to many issues which needs to be explained for a decent length turtorial. You got everything from bosphorous toll to modifiers for a personal union, and all needs to be covered if you want a good understanding of the game. It would be like trying to teach chess in 10seconds, sure you might be able to teach them how to move the bricks, but you wont manage to explain the core of the game. It takes time, helped by trying and failing
As a behavioral scientist, I would suggest that what you need is market research, not anecdotes and opinions.
Tutorials might well increase your sales, and/or brand loyalty or repeat buyers.
But they might also not strike a profitable balance with the additional costs.
The opinions expressed are not invalid. But they are just opinions. What you need to know to make sound business decisions is something like valid indicators of actual predispositions/preferences/peeves in the market segments that you can/should target.
Tutorials might well increase your sales, and/or brand loyalty or repeat buyers.
But they might also not strike a profitable balance with the additional costs.
The opinions expressed are not invalid. But they are just opinions. What you need to know to make sound business decisions is something like valid indicators of actual predispositions/preferences/peeves in the market segments that you can/should target.