Hey Paradox/Johan! Want to hugely increase your sales?

[Chairman Yang]

Then start making decent tutorials. Don't put them in as a half-assed afterthought. I'm amazed and happy that hundreds of thousands of players could overlook the execrable tutorials for EU3, but I guarantee you that there are many, many others who ignored the game because of its initial unfriendliness and intimidation factor.

Look, I understand that designing and coding tutorials can be difficult and boring. But for a lot of people, they're essential to ease them into the game and give them an idea of where to begin. Not everyone will be willing to experiment for hours or read wikis/message boards.

Paradox/Johan, you've made big strides in interface design, minimizing boring micromanagement, and generally making things more streamlined and logical. Best of all, you've done this without sacrificing depth or detail. In general, you've ADDED depth and detail. Now it's time to do the same thing for tutorials.

 

[unmerged(72758)]

Do you refer to the updated version of the tutorials in HttT ?

 

[Friedericus Rex]

Wouldn't ppl have to first buy the game before being turned away by it's complexity and bad tutorials?

Anyway, the people that buy these games tend to prefer the complexity of them. I never looked at a tutorial ever, and I own a lot of Pdox games. Besides, if you have questions, that's what these forums are for, and don't forget the superb wiki! No tutorial could ever teach you the game as well as those sources.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Do you refer to the updated version of the tutorials in HttT ?

I'm really referring to all of the tutorials for Paradox's grand strategy games, with a special focus on EU3's initial tutorials. They've just been really half-assed and not all that useful. I know the feeling as an experienced strategy gamer when I boot up a new Paradox game. Imagine the feeling for a casual player who doesn't play many games and picks up a Paradox title because it has a cool concept.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Wouldn't ppl have to first buy the game before being turned away by it's complexity and bad tutorials?

No. They could see the game first (through demos primarily, but also just on someone else's computer). Also think of the people who bought a Paradox title, couldn't get into it, abandoned it, and got scared off from buying subsequent Paradox games.

Anyway, the people that buy these games tend to prefer the complexity of them. I never looked at a tutorial ever, and I own a lot of Pdox games. Besides, if you have questions, that's what these forums are for, and don't forget the superb wiki! No tutorial could ever teach you the game as well as those sources.

Tutorials don't mean a lack of complexity. Quite the opposite. They're at their most useful for complex games.

There are a lot of people like you who like to jump into a game without playing a tutorial. I guarantee you that there are lots of people who aren't like that, though, and who aren't being captured by Paradox. These people are unlikely to bother checking the wiki/forums, if they're even aware of them.

 

[unmerged(72758)]

Yes, when we first played EUIII, than each new expansion, we had time learning the game ; but you're right, somebody playing directly HttT could have some difficulties until he understands all the subtilities :wacko:

 

[tuore]

So you buy games if you hear they have good tutorials? There's a strategy guide, btw.

 

[unmerged(41794)]

I haven't played it, but haven't reviews of Hearts of Iron III praised it's tutorial/learning curve? If so, couldn't one guesstimate that Paradox has already begun improving their tutorials?

 

[Chairman Yang]

So you buy games if you hear they have good tutorials? There's a strategy guide, btw.

No, but a lot of people have given up on games because they haven't been able to get into them.

The existence of a strategy guide is good, but like I said, lots of potential players won't bother with looking up anything outside of the game itself.

 

[Chairman Yang]

I haven't played it, but haven't reviews of Hearts of Iron III praised it's tutorial/learning curve? If so, couldn't one guesstimate that Paradox has already begun improving their tutorials?

Hmm...I seem to recall most people slamming the HOI3 tutorial if they mentioned it at all. Type "Hearts of Iron 3 tutorial" into Google and look at the results. I suppose it's an improvement from some of their earlier games where there was NO tutorial, though.

I also want to distinguish between the tutorial and the accessibility of the rest of the game. As I mentioned, Paradox has made lots of great improvements in general accessibility. It's just the tutorial--the initial entry point and guide for a lot of players--that's been lacking.

 

[Pitt The Elder]

But for a lot of people, [the tutorials] essential to ease them into the game and give them an idea of where to begin. Not everyone will be willing to experiment for hours or read wikis/message boards.

Bah, what do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

Besides, Europa Universalis is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beaches of Maldives and produce a World Conquest. We use big countries to fashion better countries, and then our better countries to train for smaller counries, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.



That, and the tutorials, even when they worked in the first release, they still didn't help you nearly enough to really succeed. The only real key to learning the game is trying, failing, and then getting people here to answer questions, which we're all more than happy to do.

 

[Urza]

I agree that a well-written, friendly and efficient tutorial is always a good thing for a game to have. It would be impossible of course to teach a new player all he needs to know about the game or even 10% of that; even teaching 1% of what could be considered 'esssential' would be hard to do in this case. But a tutorial isn't only about passing specific information, it is also about giving a general ideas about what the main parts of the game are about and conveying an atmosphere or emotions in general; showing the player ways how he can have fun with the game. Yes, I think that about any game can profit from a good tutorial and this game could certainly use one.

 

[e_quality]

If we're talking sales numbers I'm sure a good demo is much, much more important than a good tutorial. A demo may decide whether someone buys the game or not. A tutorial is often enough a post facto thingy which the player may or may not utilize to get started with the, already bought and paid, game.

 

[unmerged(72758)]

If we're talking sales numbers I'm sure a good demo is much, much more important than a good tutorial. A demo may decide whether someone buys the game or not. A tutorial is often enough a post facto thingy which the player may or may not utilize to get started with the, already bought and paid, game.

Of course, but not only, as said Chairman Yang :

No. They could see the game first (through demos primarily, but also just on someone else's computer). Also think of the people who bought a Paradox title, couldn't get into it, abandoned it, and got scared off from buying subsequent Paradox games.

 

[6354201]

The tutorials are pretty bad in most Paradox games, many times they have bugs that prevent them from even being finished. At the very least, they should be bug free.

 

[unmerged(69928)]

I rarely will play through a tutorial. Even if I do, it's the first, most basic one and forget the rest. Of the ones I've tried, most don't make it through the first one before I feel like I'm doing gaming for morons. (They have a great Telethon, BTW...) I've done a few that were decent, but they are exceptions to the rule, and none in recent memory.

Give me a good manual any day of the week. Of the tutorials I've tried, few could be rated on the scale as anything above "almost useful". It takes so much less time to just look it up as I go. Plus I get answers to the things I need to know as opposed to "and now we're going to spend ten minutes while the tutorial explains how to put men on a ship..."

Put the time and effort into a well thought out manual and spend the rest on making the game better... Not on a tutorial click fest of 1 thing I need to know and 20 I had figured out before I turned the game on.

please.

T

But that's just me... As always... YMMV...

 

[Grunthex]

Bah, what do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

A more approriate quote for this thread could not be found. I salute you, sir.

 

[naggy]

I think the important thing to take from this thread is not that any one path is best, but rather, the manual, a demo, the strategy guide, and tutorials are ALL important. Everyone has a different preferred learning style, and for Paradox titles, it's better to err on the side of higher quality materials across the board.

Of course, the problem is that each of them cost time and money, and tutorials are notoriously hard to keep up to date.

 

[Chief Savage Ma]

I dropped 20 bucks on Supreme Ruler 2020 like six months ago and I still haven't figured out how to play it. But Battlegoat and Paradox still have my 20 bucks. Tutorials aren't a priority and the community has been a good substitute for that. It'd be nice but I doubt seeing anything past basic controls.

 

[naggy]

I dropped 20 bucks on Supreme Ruler 2020 like six months ago and I still haven't figured out how to play it. But Battlegoat and Paradox still have my 20 bucks. Tutorials aren't a priority and the community has been a good substitute for that. It'd be nice but I doubt seeing anything past basic controls.

Ironically, it was SR 2010's demo that turned me off to the game - when the demo is confusing, why should I expect the game to be any better? I never even gave them a shot for SR2020.