Heroes Redux

[Alfryd]

I personally favour the theory that Grum-Gog was an ancient wizard (see above) subsequently worshipped as a God, and that he did create the goblins.

I think that Andraxal-Kerlazor was mentioned as the last of the dragon kings, which suggests that there were previous incumbents of the office. I dunno. It seems unlikely he was the original. I vaguely recall Falotar had some ideas on this front.

I've come up with a 'first draft' for the wizardly skill tree. It needs to be simplified and streamlined, but hopefully it'll give some idea of the overall shape of things.

 

[Alfryd]

I've also added some ad-hoc detail to the wizard entry. Not much structure to it, I'm afraid, but it's a start?

 

[unmerged(79717)]

Besides, although the Prima Guide only credits Krolm with creating humanity, the (manual's) Spirit of the Land DOES describe Krolm creating, well- pretty much everything. The two narratives are in contradiction on other points, so it's entirely possible the truth is somewhere in between, but thou shalt not multiply entities beyond neccesity.

In it entirety "The Spirit of the Land" is all of four paragraphs, it seems hardly authoritative (especially compared to the pages and pages of details in the Prima Guide history). It seems overly simplistic. Perhaps it is a old legend or fable. It never claims it's historically accurate. To me it's simply a story.

If you do not agree, that's fine, but if you accept The Spirit of the Land as accurate you need to utterly reject all of the history in the Prima Guide because:
Krolm in the Spirit Land story is a primitive life form because he uses asexual reproduction (Krolm divided his essence). The most advanced known life form that uses asexual reproduction is the sponge. The Prima guide clearly states that Krolm reproduces using sexual reproduction, and Helia and Lunord have a nameless female god as a mother.
The Prima Guide states that Krolm's children were born after the death of Andraxal-Kerlaazor (during the centuries it takes him to recover). However, The Spirit of the Land says prior to the birth of Lunord and Helia, "Adrania's countenance was still blanketed in darkness and tumult". It would be clearly impossible for the Ardania ecosystem to survive untold millennia in darkness (photosynthesis wouldn't be possible). Not to mention the fact that the dragon wars, the age of Brashnard and Rogna Blood Axe, and all the other historical events up to that point happened in utter darkness.
So yes, you are correct, the two stories do contradict each other. You have to select one or the other as authoritative. I chose the Prima Guide story. "The Spirit of the Land" is a fable. It's something you might tell to young children to teach them about the gods.

 

[Alfryd]

You have to select one or the other as authoritative.

Actually, I wouldn't be inclined to accept either as literal gospel truth, either in whole or in part.

In it entirety "The Spirit of the Land" is all of four paragraphs, it seems hardly authoritative (especially compared to the pages and pages of details in the Prima Guide history). It seems overly simplistic. Perhaps it is a old legend or fable. It never claims it's historically accurate. To me it's simply a story.

I agree that it certainly seems like a legend or fable, perhaps something you'd tell to children to explain the world. It may well represent the oral account of a barbarian shaman, and does seem slightly simplistic. However, to me, the Prima Guide history simply reads like a somewhat longer mishmash of historical conjecture, told by adults to convince themselves they understand the world, whilst working off of incomplete, inaccurate and fractured sources. It reads like pro-sydrianic propaganda. I don't accept one as inherently superior to the other unless one happens to give a more elegant explanation, or they find corroboration elsewhere in the 'canon sources.' (The Prima Guide does, on many points, but not here.)

Krolm in the Spirit Land story is a primitive life form because he uses asexual reproduction (Krolm divided his essence). The most advanced known life form that uses asexual reproduction is the sponge.

Actually, what I always found harder to believe was that giant personified humanoids in the sky literally bumped uglies in order to bring forth viable offspring. I prefer to imagine that divine reproduction follows slightly different rules from those of a corporeal organism (which by the way, Krolm isn't, excepting on rare occasions.)

The Prima Guide states that Krolm's children were born after the death of Andraxal-Kerlaazor (during the centuries it takes him to recover). However, The Spirit of the Land says prior to the birth of Lunord and Helia, "Adrania's countenance was still blanketed in darkness and tumult". It would be clearly impossible for the Ardania ecosystem to survive untold millennia in darkness (photosynthesis wouldn't be possible).

Dumble, by that logic, nobody could have died in the Six Winters' War, because Krypta hadn't been born yet, so death could not exist. Lunord and Helia are the Gods of of the Moon and Sun, not literally an orb of fusion fire and ball of meteor-pocked rock. Alternatively, one could simply say that Helia and Lunord were 'born'- whatever that means, exactly- well before Krolm's battle with Andraxal-Kerlazor, and the Prima Guide is simply mistaken, and/or that records of their worship only began during this time, since it took Krolm's prolonged convalescence to permit the Sky Gods' rise to prominence.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

Dumble, by that logic, nobody could have died in the Six Winters' War, because Krypta hadn't been born yet, so death could not exist...

Exactly!
That "logic" is the very reason why I view the "The Spirit of the Land" as a fable cloaked in metaphor instead of an account of historical events.
I obviously don't believe that the gods are the physical manifestation of the forces they have dominion over. If that was the case then life couldn't have existed until the six winters War because Agrela didn't exist.

Actually, what I always found harder to believe was that giant personified humanoids in the sky literally bumped uglies in order to bring forth viable offspring. I prefer to imagine that divine reproduction follows slightly different rules from those of a corporeal organism (which by the way, Krolm isn't, excepting on rare occasions.)

Sexual reproduction doesn't have to necessarily imply a mammalian type of intercourse (i.e. "bumped uglies"). Most species of fish, for example, reproduce via oviparity (The female lays undeveloped eggs, and the male fertilizes them externally). Regardless of the exact method of fertilization, the evidence presented in the Prima Guide suggest that it is indeed sexual reproduction and occurs by the same biological mechanism as human reproduction.
The Prima Guide accounts that reproduction among Ardanian gods always happened with a male and female (a requirement for sexual reproduction). In addition the Prima Guide seems to suggests in the case of godly incestuous parings (Helia and Lunord), it leads to an increased frequency of congenital birth defects. The result was three of the seven offspring of Helia and Lunord were "misshapen beasts". The second and third children had sufficient birth defects that "neither was even strong enough to be a god." While the Prima Guide doesn't explicitly state these were the direct result of the increase in the frequency of homozygote congenital birth defects, it seems to be a likely cause.
All in all, the evidence presented in the Prima Guide supports my belief that the gods reproduce in a manner similar to their followers.

 

[Alfryd]

That "logic" is the very reason why I view the "The Spirit of the Land" as a fable cloaked in metaphor instead of an account of historical events.

You only found this incongruous because you assumed the timing in one narrative coincided with the other. My point is that Krolm may have created the sun and moon for reasons stated in the manual, long before those celestial bodies became associated, either in fact or by recorded history, with their respective Gods.

Most species of fish, for example, reproduce via oviparity...

Again, I fail to see the relevance. Krolm isn't a fish or a sponge any more than he's a bird or a mammal.

...the evidence presented in the Prima Guide suggest that it is indeed sexual reproduction and occurs by the same biological mechanism as human reproduction. ...homozygote congenital birth defects, it seems to be a likely cause.

Dumble, for starters, Gods are immortal, which according to your own earlier analyses means they couldn't be considered conventional life-forms in the first place, so everything we might normally assume about biological genetics gets thrown out the window right there. Secondly- I must again stress- the Gods aren't even physical beings tied to a particular hard-and-fast location in space-time- how, exactly, do they get pregnant? Thirdly, and most importantly, whatever the Prima Guide says, there's an entirely separate account, of equal canonicity, which happens to say something completely different.

For my own part, I find the Prima Guide narrative's insistence on tying up every loose end alluded to in the quests, however insignificant, smacks of a retroactive eulogy in praise of the latest sovereign's manifest destiny, with scant regard for objectivity or coherence. I also find it difficult to imagine exactly how the authors could comment authoratatively on the bedroom antics of deities or battles that took place well before recorded history, with any more certainty than a children's fable or a shaman's epic. Sure, maybe I'm only making things up here, but at least I'm honest about it.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

You only found this incongruous because you assumed the timing in one narrative coincided with the other. My point is that Krolm may have created the sun and moon for reasons stated in the manual, long before those celestial bodies became associated, either in fact or by recorded history, with their respective Gods.

Yes.
As I previously pointed out, life existed before Argela (i.e. the goddess of life) existed, so we're in agreement, right?

Again, I fail to see the relevance. Krolm isn't a fish or a sponge any more than he's a bird or a mammal.

The point I was trying to make was sexual reproduction doesn't have to involve the genital contact you found objectionable. Fish were an example of this. Amphibians are another.

Dumble, for starters, Gods are immortal, which according to your own earlier analyses means they couldn't be considered conventional life-forms in the first place, so everything we might normally assume about biological genetics gets thrown out the window right there.

I didn't know that.
None of the Ardanian lore I read states the Gods are immortal. Maybe I missed it (or is this a personal assertion?). I believe corporeal immorality is an impossibility given the laws of physics, but some sort of metaphysical/spiritual immorality could be possible.

Secondly- I must again stress- the Gods aren't even physical beings tied to a particular hard-and-fast location in space-time- how, exactly, do they get pregnant?

Yeah, sure... beings existing outside the universe aren't constrained by the physical laws of said universe. But merely talking about such beings with the context of the universe doesn't make sense. Male, female, good, evil, big, small, powerful, weak, etc. -- none of it applies.

Thirdly, and most importantly, whatever the Prima Guide says, there's an entirely separate account, of equal canonicity, which happens to say something completely different.

But that creation account is even more logically flawed than the Prima Guide. In addition it never states it's intended as a historical account.

For my own part, I find the Prima Guide narrative's insistence on tying up every loose end alluded to in the quests, however insignificant, smacks of a retroactive eulogy in praise of the latest sovereign's manifest destiny, with scant regard for objectivity or coherence. I also find it difficult to imagine exactly how the authors could comment authoratatively on the bedroom antics of deities or battles that took place well before recorded history, with any more certainty than a children's fable or a shaman's epic. Sure, maybe I'm only making things up here, but at least I'm honest about it.

Short of commentary by Jim DuBois or Rob Caswell (LOL and after a decade they have probably forgotten a lot of it) we have to try our best to figure out the implications of what they wrote. I've merely stated my opinion and offered evidence to support it (in both the text itself and with established scientific principles).
You, of course, are free to reject my opinion, either whole or in part. You have repeatedly invited commentary and/or criticism about your ideas. That's what I did. If you would prefer I didn't, I'll respect that wish.

 

[Nerdfish]

On the matter of wizardry: I am fine with what is agreed right now. Personally Tholaria should be somewhat similar in relative influence and power to Dalaran in Azeroth(warcraft) or the Silver League in Ashan(Heroes of might and magic). Tholaria would have a long and rather ... interesting history with fundamentalist neighbors on her northern boarder.

Outside the city state, the wizard community of Ardania could be similar to the college council in Golden compass and the ministry of magic and the schools it govern in Harry potter. The wizard guild should be on good term with authority (good enough to send its members on the sovereign's quest, with some motivation) but they are free thinkers and can produce disruptive technology and do things that the nobility don't necessarily approve. If the commission system is implemented, the requests of wizard guilds should be rather unusual and sometimes counter intuitive. While a warrior guild would request the sovereign to for example, post a bounty on a thieve that keeps stealing their equipment, the wizard guild would probably request the sovereign to somehow obtain a dragon egg for them - in exchange of ten free lightning storms, for example.

I don't know what's the relationship between the commoners and wizards. I would imagine anyone with power to launch sphere of flame at a whim should be rightfully feared by people who work the fields.

 

[Alfryd]

(Panegyric! ...That's the word I was looking for.)

Short of commentary by Jim DuBois or Rob Caswell (LOL and after a decade they have probably forgotten a lot of it) we have to try our best to figure out the implications of what they wrote.

I agree, which is why I am wary of leaning too heavily on any single source for an accurate picture of ardania's evolution, and the Prima Guide history is clearly addressed to the ardanian sovereign, rather than the game's player. So, it's subject to all the same provisos and caveats as any work of medieval narrative (while making allowance for the existence of magic.)

If Jim or/and Rob cared to throw in Their Two Cents, of course, then I will bow to higher authority on the matter.

You, of course, are free to reject my opinion, either whole or in part. You have repeatedly invited commentary and/or criticism about your ideas. That's what I did. If you would prefer I didn't, I'll respect that wish.

It's not the existence of feedback/criticism that I'm having trouble with- Indeed, it's quite welcome. Thank you.
I would also welcome criticism on a somewhat wider selection of topics, ideally related to specific gameplay suggestions, and I would also welcome ideas on 'filling in the blanks' within the existing canon.

The point I was trying to make was sexual reproduction doesn't have to involve the genital contact you found objectionable. Fish were an example of this. Amphibians are another.

What I found objectionable is the assumption of ANY kind of conventional sexual rules regarding immortal, incorporeal beings who transcend the laws of space and time as we know them. I am very interested in the subject of how the laws of physics and biochemistry might realistically apply themselves in fantasy settings- and I would find your input in this area particularly valuable when it comes to the wizards and their abilities- but the Gods themselves are an area where it's simply an awkward line of analysis.

But that creation account is even more logically flawed than the Prima Guide. In addition it never states it's intended as a historical account.

EDIT: Actually, I get what you say about the 'realm of storm and fury' thing. Maybe it's not strictly chronological?

None of the Ardanian lore I read states the Gods are immortal. ...Male, female, good, evil, big, small, powerful, weak, etc. -- none of it applies.

There's no indication they die of old age, and (unless they manifest in physical form,) can even be harmed. I dunno, Gods are traditionally immortal. I don't know about weak or powerful, but I certainly tend to imagine that male/female is largely a question of how the deity in question likes to present itself to mortal followers.

On the matter of wizardry: I am fine with what is agreed right now. Personally Tholaria should be somewhat similar in relative influence and power to Dalaran in Azeroth(warcraft) or the Silver League in Ashan(Heroes of might and magic). Tholaria would have a long and rather ... interesting history with fundamentalist neighbors on her northern boarder.

Conceivably, but Tholaria's northern neighbours, as far as we know, consist of the Dwarves, Shovrah dan, and an area referred to in Darkness Falls, at one point inhabited by goblins. How do you imagine these fundamentalist hostilities playing out?

I'm otherwise in broad agreement with your suggestions on Tholaria's perception in the outside world. I should mention, however, that sorcery was first perfected in the eastern provinces, so that a separate centre of learning is most likely located there. (Unless sorcery is treated as a 'local craft' with a master/apprentice relationship.)

I would imagine anyone with power to launch sphere of flame at a whim should be rightfully feared by people who work the fields.

True ...but I imagine they'd be equally 'respectful' of people happy to impale them on bits of sharp metal. It's all a question of building relationships. I can imagine the local peasantry being on relatively cordial terms with an eccentric but amiable scholar who doesn't go out much but brews the occasional salve for rheumatism at very reasonable prices, then react with dread and awe when he handily dispatches a half-dozen minotaurs ploughing through the market square.

 

[Spiderman]

I dunno, Gods are traditionally immortal.

This line just jumped out at me. I think it's dangerous to assume anything "traditional" in Ardania; I mean, look at the Elves's role - purveyors of vice and gambling, something not "traditionally" thought of as "elvish".

In addition, the Forgotten Realms pantheon, one of the largest settings in D&D, has plenty of deicides. Gods are definitely not "immortal" there.

 

[Alfryd]

I meant immortal in the sense of, 'left to own devices, will live forever.' It is implied that physical manifestation carried with it the risk of physical extinction, if Krolm's injuries in battle with Andraxal-kerlazor are anything to go by.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

This line just jumped out at me. I think it's dangerous to assume anything "traditional" in Ardania; I mean, look at the Elves's role - purveyors of vice and gambling, something not "traditionally" thought of as "elvish".

In addition, the Forgotten Realms pantheon, one of the largest settings in D&D, has plenty of deicides. Gods are definitely not "immortal" there.

I would tend to agree. From it very inception, Majesty was not a typical fantasy game. Woven throughout the games tapestry are wonderfully ironic bits of mirth. The gnomes who wallow in filth, the elven prostitution, the effeminate tax collectors. These touches give the game it's character. Without them, Majesty would be just another ho-hum fantasy game. It was so refreshing to have characters that didn't act like the were all trying to be Beowulf. They seem to have genuine motivations (I don't want to die I'm just a gnome). These are some of the characters you would really run in to, in the middle ages. The fall-on-your-sword-for-king-and-country types were the rare exceptions. The vast majority of the people were far more sensible than that.

 

[Alfryd]

Without them, Majesty would be just another ho-hum fantasy game.

I don't dispute the value of the humour, but I think the indirect control and quality of artwork and setting were distinctive in themselves.
...in any case, I don't this reflects on the topic at hand. Elves can be lascivious, indolent and amoral and still be genuine elves, gnomes can be hygienically-challenged, gregarious and upbeat and still be gnomes. But a God that isn't immortal, hugely powerful, and/or has a consciousness different from that of mortals isn't a God. That's one area where being idiosyncratic doesn't clarify things.

I should mention that the Balance of Twilight in-game help does lend some weight to Helia/Lunord's birth just after Krolm's battle with Andraxal-kerlazor as the 'favoured hypothesis' among ardanian scholars, as this is the given motive for the construction of the Shrine of Light.

On the other hand, I should mention that all the other manual entries beside the Spirit of the Land are direct, literal descriptions of actual events in the game-world, as opposed to the second-hand account in the Prima Guide.

In any case, Dumble, I'd be glad to receive your input on the following- If we assume that a wizard is someone who can sort of bend, but not break, the laws of physics- e.g, are still broadly subject to the laws of conservation of matter/energy, thermodynamics, the uncertainty principle, etc. How would he go about the business of teleportation, creating fireballs, illusions, etc?

I'm assuming that a wizard can:
-replenish his/her stocks of energy using the aether winds, condensed into mana.
-invoke basic physical forces, with an appropriate cost in energy (either as mana or fatigue.)
-has an array of spells used to store, trigger, bind or counter other spells.

Teleportation, in particular, interests me. Quantum tunnelling? Wormholes? Anything more plausible?

 

[Spiderman]

But a God that isn't immortal, hugely powerful, and/or has a consciousness different from that of mortals isn't a God.

Well, given your clarification to "immortal", I would agree with you there.

 

[Flammifleure]

Sorry for the disappearing act. I suppose it would be truest to say I lost interest, after trying to come up with a coherent structure for the Adepts.

I'm still interested in discussing Lunord and his legacy, as well as the other hero classes, but after slogging through the last several pages I feel disinclined to do it here. Especially in regards to the Wizards. My ideas on them are essentially different from Cooker's, or Dumble's from what I can see of them. But I'm not anxious to be dragged into a debate regarding the mechanics and merits of a world that does not exist -- not even in the sense that Warhammer's or The Silmarillion's universes exist. The original Majesty was vague but with a sense of depth; the proposed game seems to lack the depth whatever it else it does have. Everything else is fanon -- ironically enough some from my own pen. Ardania is a land still in the planning stages, and we are not the ones to deicde what plans will be used.

 

[Alfryd]

Rather than repeat the same argument over again, I'll just link here.
But hey, I can take a hint. I'll take the ideas/suggestions elsewhere, and hope you feel more inclined to nitpick then.

 

[Nerdfish]

In any case, Dumble, I'd be glad to receive your input on the following- If we assume that a wizard is someone who can sort of bend, but not break, the laws of physics- e.g, are still broadly subject to the laws of conservation of matter/energy, thermodynamics, the uncertainty principle, etc. How would he go about the business of teleportation, creating fireballs, illusions, etc?

I'd think that the laws of physics in Ardania allows such manipulations. In the strict sense nothing is broken, because if it's broken, it's no longer a law of physics.

It just happens that wizards in Ardania can toss fireballs around - in that world it's no less unnatural then radio.

 

[Draxynnic]

The thought strikes me that the darkness doesn't need to be literal darkness. It could be darkness of the "it was a dark time" nature instead.

Or there could have been things that lived purely on magic that other creatures could then eat in turn, some of which later evolved to photosynthesise instead.

Also, I seem to have missed it previously (or maybe I missed the post in which I pointed it out)), but magic having strict rules and being reproducable isn't the case in every fantasy universe. Having specific spells pushes it in that direction, but it's a common enough trope that simply copying another wizard's spells doesn't work - at best, it's a starting point to figure out how to make the spell work for you, and in some universes it just shows that it can be done, but not necassarily by you and certainly not by copying someone else's method.

 

[Nerdfish]

I have taken all these stuff you wrote into consideration for the subfaction thread.

Ha. good fun.