Heroes Redux

[Alfryd]

My net access crapped out for a day or two again. I will have to hunt down those who work at my ISP, and their families, then whack them repeatedly with soft rubber mallets.

The Trade would probably result in the hiring of Specialists, which makes Contracting a breeze and results in the Rogue performing sabotage and assassinations with higher than average skill and efficiency. Thefts would be limited to contracted espionage however and thus reflected in the inability to invoke Extortion.

Sounds good overall. I should point out that Commisions, by contrast, would be less effective, since the Trade doesn't like to 'outsource' so to speak. The other thing I'd add would be that the trade has greater-than-normal proficiency with weapons and traditional combat skills, meaning that some earn a living as hired mercenaries.

As for the Crimson Hand, one theory is that they'll slowly increase profit and loyalty if they're based off the Thuggee cults. One idea is that they'll slowly raise the town's morale by either converting the citizens to their religion of choice and/or killing off the stubborn cases. They might contribute to fights against other kingdoms, especially if they worship a diametrically opposite deity. Extortion would be boosted as a sufficiently influenced town would gladly fork over the gold for the cause.

Well, I meant to say that the Hand is specifically linked to Krypta and the priestesses, by contrast with the healer/warrior relationship.

The White Orchid as the secret police model might reduce crime and infiltration, and enhance Solarii and Adept patrols, as well as encompass a little bit of the other two factions without their specializations and strengths.

Actually, I think the White Orchids are mentioned as one of the premier crime syndicates in the in-game help for the rogues' guild, so it would make more sense that the Crimson hand would act as 'secret police.' But your suggestions for secret police are certainly intriguing. This means that, if you have the Priestesses established in your kingdom, the Crimson Hand presence allows you to exercise the usual benefits of a rogues' guild without any of the usual drawbacks- high crime, disloyalty, etc.

I was thinking that the Orchids would specialise in smuggling, narcotics, extortion and human trafficking, and are based in the eastern provinces.


I'd love to hear some suggestions for the rangers/warriors/gnomes, and any feedback on the adepts or other classes. I wonder where Falatar/Flammifleur's got to?

1. Highest Burst damage of all classes.
2. Very high sustained DPS, perhaps not as high as the barbarian, but ...
3. Highest Possible range of all classes with right specialization
4. Exceptional against buildings
5. Powerful AOEs
6. Powerful DoT, perhaps not as high as the priestess, however
7. Very dangerous Team Kill / friendly fire, very good chance of incinerate buildings if fighting in-doors.
8. Use Damage shields / feedback for defense, rather then damage absorption / armor or parry / dodge skills.
9. Some utility and manipulation spells, but nowhere as many as divine casters.

I'm largely in agreement with you here.

Those are the reasoning behind the arcane/mental/elemental skill tress. Your idea of geomancer / warlocks are specialists divine casters (whose power originate in an external source) They should therefore originate from one of the exiting divine caster classes, rather then wizard.

Not really. As I've explained, the daemonologist isn't tied to the Gods, but to the Elementals, or 'Daemons' as they are also known, which is an extension of, well elemental magic, and spells like Gate. The Geomancer's power is a reflection of the same methods that wizards' guilds and sorcs' abodes use in order to power their spells- by catching the aether winds and other ambient magics, (something explicitly mentioned in in-game help.)

My other main reservation would be that mental/psionic spells should probably be reserved for the sorceror, which is a bit like the Paladin/WoD, only applied to arcane spellcasters. The reason for this is that mind-affecting spells or biomancy are very difficult for wizards, for much the same reason that they tend to favour raw destructive firepower- simple thermodynamics dictates that it's easier to non-reversibly destroy things than to repair or tinker with complex, fine-scale systems, and both physical biology and the workings of the mind are extremely complex, fine-scale systems (This is why I put the Teratogenitor at very high levels.)

In short, gameplay wizard the wizard's class is a very offensively orientated. they focus on powerful alpha strikes that kills everything and leave nobody left to retaliate - which they are vulnerable to.

While I agree that wizards should rely first and foremost on an 'active defence', if instances of "I'm meeeelting!" are going to be reduced, they need to have a better array of personal protective spells, and an assortment of personal meat-shields. (Or, at least, an ability to support team-mates a little better.)


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[unmerged(81288)]

The other thing I'd add would be that the trade has greater-than-normal proficiency with weapons and traditional combat skills, meaning that some earn a living as hired mercenaries.

Which could also be reflected by an increase to income in exchange for some of the best Heroes being temporarily unavailable at certain times. A slight compensation for the inability to Extort. Of course the gold flow and the length of unavailability would increase proportionately with the Hero's level and skills.

Well, I meant to say that the Hand is specifically linked to Krypta and the priestesses, by contrast with the healer/warrior relationship.

Actually, I think the White Orchids are mentioned as one of the premier crime syndicates in the in-game help for the rogues' guild, so it would make more sense that the Crimson hand would act as 'secret police.' But your suggestions for secret police are certainly intriguing. This means that, if you have the Priestesses established in your kingdom, the Crimson Hand presence allows you to exercise the usual benefits of a rogues' guild without any of the usual drawbacks- high crime, disloyalty, etc.

Since it would effectively be state sanctioned. Extortion could be retitled into a more sinister innuendo while you have the Crimson Hand as your Rogues. There would be only be "average" take for the Extortion, but the Crimson Hand would require less of a cut. In addition, they would counter infiltration by enemy Rogues or any other manipulation by enemy kingdoms that would steal something from you besides Gold or increase disloyalty.

I was thinking that the Orchids would specialise in smuggling, narcotics, extortion and human trafficking, and are based in the eastern provinces.

And in game terms that could be translated to more money, faster and plentiful Peasant labor... and a crime spree that'll make your hairs stand on end.

 

[Alfryd]

All sounds good to me.
To be honest, I've got this sinking feeling that the devs are kind of pre-occupied at the moment, though, so it may be a while before I feel like working heavily on this much more.

Oh, well. The rough outlines for just about every class are there at any rate. The major additions would be a system of nobility and titles related to land ownership for the Warrior, with perhaps formations, a barracks and stables thrown in. Animal companion/tracking/favoured quarry for the ranger.

On further rumination, I was thinking the healer's magic could work by basing their powers off their adherence to three distinct principles or vows- Kismet(the personal voyage of the soul,) Ahimsa(non-violence,) and Caritas(universal compassion.) Each spell would be tied to these principles, so that the better the healer sticks to her ethical guns, the more powerful s/he becomes.

It's a pity I can't get some more extensive ideas going for the wizard and healer. Cooker- if you're not too busy- I'd be interested to see you come up with a genuine skill tree for the wizard that would allow differentiation and specialisation of the kind you mentioned. I think it might be the best way of expressing the 'essence' of the class. Then we can hook up the various prestige class to different stages in the tree.

 

[Nerdfish]

Not really. As I've explained, the daemonologist isn't tied to the Gods, but to the Elementals, or 'Daemons' as they are also known, which is an extension of, well elemental magic, and spells like Gate. The Geomancer's power is a reflection of the same methods that wizards' guilds and sorcs' abodes use in order to power their spells- by catching the aether winds and other ambient magics, (something explicitly mentioned in in-game help.)

My other main reservation would be that mental/psionic spells should probably be reserved for the sorceror, which is a bit like the Paladin/WoD, only applied to arcane spellcasters. The reason for this is that mind-affecting spells or biomancy are very difficult for wizards, for much the same reason that they tend to favour raw destructive firepower- simple thermodynamics dictates that it's easier to non-reversibly destroy things than to repair or tinker with complex, fine-scale systems, and both physical biology and the workings of the mind are extremely complex, fine-scale systems (This is why I put the Teratogenitor at very high levels.)

While I agree that wizards should rely first and foremost on an 'active defence', if instances of "I'm meeeelting!" are going to be reduced, they need to have a better array of personal protective spells, and an assortment of personal meat-shields. (Or, at least, an ability to support team-mates a little better.)
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Very reasonable. Mental magic could be moved to sorcerer skill tree and summoning added to wizard skill tree I also like your reasoning behind the wizard's propensity for sheer destruction.

As for active defense, I would like to categorize them into the following.
1. Damage shield - most straightforward defense against melee attack, attackers take X damage for each swing or Y damage dealt. e.g. melee attackers take damage equal to caster level with each swing (deadly against user of light/fast weapons)
2. Traps - Enemies entering area takes X damage and is debuffed /disabled for Y seconds. e.g. target entering the magic circle take massive fire damage and is set ablaze.
3. Contingencies - Cast Y when X happens. To prepare a contingency, the wizard select from a list of conditions and available spells. e.g. cast teleport to a certain inn when health is below 50%

that's really quite enough, IMO

 

[Draxynnic]

On the immortality thing...

I'm a nuclear physics student, and I cringe when people start bringing things like teh Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle into a fantasy setting.

Majesty has magic in it. Almost by definition, that means it can break the laws of physics.

To go back a couple of pages: Warhammer Fantasy elves are definitely mortal - it's actually an important part of their mythology that they do eventually die after a few milennia. There are exceptions to that rule, but those are special.

As for the rest, I'm in information overload right now, so I might respond later...

 

[Alfryd]

Ah, yes, the age-old debate of realism in fantasy settings.
The things is that, yes, while magic is definitionally some form of physics distortion (which isn't to say it doesn't carry equally conservative laws of it's own,) not everything in the world is magical. By default, things in a fantasy setting of a mundane nature behave just like things of a mundane nature everywhere else. The question would be the degree to which elves are mundane, and if they're not, do such extraordinary qualities come at some other price? (...alternatively, maybe life just ain't fair.)

I had a modest brainwave with respect to the healer, so there's a more detailed spellcasting mechanic in place now, and I also updated the Solarus. I'm worried the Solarus may be a little monotonous, actually.

The major remaining addition is the Paladin, which is basically a class that can pick and choose what it likes from the abilities of the Monk, Healer, and Warrior (well, within limits.)

I hope Flammifleur can still provide some background on the Lunord/vargish connection. It's definitely something I'd like to hear more about.

As for the rest, I'm in information overload right now, so I might respond later...

No particular rush.

 

[Alfryd]

I actually seem to be referring to healers as 'she' most of the time, but I would imagine that healers can be of either sex.

Basically, priestesses and solarii are always women, barbarians are always men, monks and WoDs are mostly men, and paladins most commonly women. Other classes have (usually) milder tendencies toward one gender or another. A relatively slim majority of warriors, rangers, adepts and wizards are men, with women more common among healers, cultists and sorcerors, (I'd guess. If a 50/50 split is easier to market, I say go with it.)

There may be something of a problem with the goblin background, since elves aren't supposed to have arrrived in ardania until long after the goblins first appeared... Oh well.

 

[Nerdfish]

In a world with working magic, it'd be studied like any other natural science. After all if it cannot be reliably reproduced nobody would use it. :rofl:

That's why I think it'd be similar to magnetism in our own world. After all our own bodies does not come with sensory system to detect magnetic field nor ability to manipulate it. But what if we are evolved with ability to sense and manipulate magnetic fields - wouldn't it look like magic when someone exerts to levitate a metallic object?

 

[Draxynnic]

Or a magic firestick that caused a hole to appear in whatever it was pointed at?

There are different concepts of magic depending on the world. In some it is indeed something that can be studied as a science... in others, the fact that it doesn't give reproducable results is part of what distinguishes magic from science.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

Not necessarily unreproducible results, but definitely anything with a limited understanding.
In modern physics and cosmology we have our own version of magic. It's called dark energy (and dark matter). We don't understand how they work, but we observe their behavior. It is estimated that together dark energy and dark matter comprise 96% of our universe. Or to put in another way, at our current technology level, we only understand how 4% of our universe (and even that 4% is far from perfect knowledge).
Of course my comparison of magic and dark energy upsets physicists and cosmetologists to no end (who balk at the idea). However, I stand by it as a valid observation. Natural forces which we have virtually no understanding can be classified as magic until such time as we can explain their behavior in terms of established scientific principles.

 

[Nerdfish]

Magic is an effect - it's just something that one does not understand. It could be produced by deception or technology, after all a famous scifi author stated that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. :rofl:

 

[Alfryd]

I seem to have made a significant mistake with regard to the Adept history- the majesty manual describes their temple as a 'Ziggurat' in one of the sovereign stories, which would indicate a babylonian motif, rather than aztec. I will try to correct that, and get around to fixing up the rogues/cultists to incorporate newer suggestions.

There are different concepts of magic depending on the world. In some it is indeed something that can be studied as a science... in others, the fact that it doesn't give reproducable results is part of what distinguishes magic from science.

That's true. My general attitude on ardanian magic is that it's distinguished from science by being dependant on the talent (e.g. intellect/spirit or something 'in the blood') and skill of the user, whereas technology can be freely reproduced and used by any schmuck. I tend to imagine arcane magic requires the direct participation of the user's mind, along with some sort of external focus to amplify and modulate the effects (in the case of wizards, that focus is their staff, in the case of sorcerors, their own body. Sorcerors can therefore be more powerful, but wizards can make better use of technology themselves.) You could always go with the old dichotomy that sorcerors operate by talent, wizards by instruction, but it seems a little clichéd.(?)


I have a reasonable selection of spells / metamagic thought up for the wizard class(es,) but I haven't been able to think of a good skill tree to give them structure, as opposed to an old-fashioned 'school' breakdown. I'll try to type them up later for discussion's sake anyhoo.

Some of the major divisions would be (though the names are very much subject to revision.) bear in mind that certain spells may belong to several divisions.

Invocations. -these are spells that deal with the direct summoning and manipulation of physical forces- heat, light, mass, magnetism, force, etc. Because an invocation creates and governs real forces, they cannot be directly resisted. They are among the easiest spells to tailor and reconstitute 'on the fly', and among the easiest to master, but have high energy requirements.

Summonings. -these are spells that directly conjure a substance or object into being. The difference between summonings and invocations is that the effects of a summoning are strictly temporary, (in order to avoid violation of laws of conservation of mass and energy,) and can be resisted normally. These spells do NOT cover summoning extraplanar creatures (or creatures of any kind, for that matter,) into being- this is covered by Gating.

Metamagic. -anything used to tweak or modify a spell indirectly- such as prepare it for later use, recycle or capture spells, composite new spells, alter it's subject or parameters, etc. etc. Anything related to the use or storage of mana falls under this heading, too.

Warpings. -these are spells that alter or redirect an existing force. (The applications are more varied than you'd think- for instance, invisibility is achieved by redirecting light around the subject to match it's original trajectory.) This is also integral to spells that tie together distant points in space-time, such as scrying, divination, teleportation, and even gating, or spells that alter the Area of Effect of invocations/summonings.

Transmutations. -closely related to Warpings, these spells specialise in creating new substances from the old (essentially, arcane chemistry / nuclear physics.) Many useful spells rely on Transmutation for their effect (for acids, heightened material reagents, poisons, and the rudiments of teratogenic research.)

Augmentation. -these spells are concerned with using existing materials/substances/objects or mystic artifacts to boost or heighten the effects of cast spells. Closely related to metamagic.

Divinations. -these are spells intended to access information not obviously accessible to the caster, either in space or in time. On the simplest level, this is a matter of using scrying spells in the role of an arcane peeping tom, but things get complicated when you try to access the past or the future- after all, the act of observation changes the observed. More vague or ambiguous questions, such as trying to identify items or pinpoint a location/person from rough description is usually prohibitively difficult for mere mortals, and best left to the Oracles. Advanced divination is essential to the Teratogenic arts- after all, genetics is essentially the study of information.


I haven't thought up a decent system of division for Psionics or Teratogeny yet, but I do have some moderately promising leads.


Oh well. These would be the options for 'old masters' in any case.

Famous sorcerors:
Morcanna (Morgana la Fey template, illusions)
Orenn-Thalinvar (last Dragon-mage, archaean)
Umako (inventor of abode, possible mage artifex?)

Note that sorcerors are relatively few.

Famous teratogenitors:
Korumkok (worshipped as Grum-Gog, archaean, created goblins, trolls as biproduct)
Andravus (relatively well-intentioned/humane, created minotaurs)
Pyrog (created strangleweed, occuli, th abomination. Insane. Never intended to control his creations.)

Note that the rustspitters, trolls and ratmen are teratogenic species created 'accidentally', and not all teratogenic species are considered Aberrations.

Famous illuminati:
Baras Nar (Brashnard, learnt magic from archaean teaching device.)
Fand'Aal (Gandalf template, active during time of sydrian. "By Fandall's beard!")
Tholar (May refer to any of the Tholarian line, down to Tholar the Tenth, including Thellia the First/Second.)

The Illuminati exist to pass down knowledge

Famous mages artifex:
Soremn (specialised in rings, armour, weapons, elvish, possible sorceror.)
Bellanus (greatest dwarven wizard, crafted Bellanus Orb, analagous to abode's nexus.)
Andreyvl (noblewoman archmage, invented eponymous lantern as mana conduit.)

Famous diviners:
Tjulek
Tarsival
Rezzenthel

(Divination was only perfected recently at the time of the first game, so the greatest diviners all lived within eachother's lifetimes.)


I'm not sure if specific classes are needed for the geomancer/daemonologist... (though, of course, it's possible for a given master wizard to have several specialisations.) Wizards that settle on a particular master to be a Disciple of get access to bonus spells and abiltiies related to him/her (e.g, Morcanna's Wondrous Orb, Rezzenthel's Pyroclastic Vortex, Tholar's Recondite Relay- All those great highfalutin' personalised spell names D&D chucked out come 3e.) Most other spells would be put together/researched dynamically by the caster.


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[Alfryd]

Waaiitaminute. If Divination was only perfected recently, it can't have been used in teratogenesis. ...well, call it 'Higher' vs. 'Lower' Divination, then...

-Did you know?
Trolls are the fruiting body of a species of a teratogenic fungus which feed off industrial waste- hence their appearance in a 'green cloud' whenever a town's smithies and marketplaces have been particularly active. (Despite a superficially humanoid appearance, Trolls entirely lack internal organs and are considered Aberrations.) Improved sanitation and better infrastructure can reduce their appearance, along with those of rustspitters (which feed on scrap metal) and ratmen (which feed on anything.)

-Did you know?
Krolm first created three humanoid races- the dwarves, the giants, and humanity. The cruelty of the Tundra Giants led to the downfall of the earliest northern civilisation, to which the Spires of Death testify.

-Did you know?
Dragons, Yeti, and Leviathans all share partial Elemental traits- they rarely need to eat, drink or sleep, possess immense strength, high intellect, and lifespans measured in thousands of years. It is believed they were created when Daemon spirits invested themselves in the bodies of the most cunning of beasts- but Daemonwood, despite their name, have quite distinct origins.


Actually, I just hauled that out of my ass, but there you have it. I hope to have some decent progress on the skill divisions for the wizard next week.

Actually, I was thinking- since dynamic spell composition might be pretty taxing for the AI- perhaps it would be possible for the player to initiate that sort of thing at the library? I dunno.

Also- I think there is some tentative supporting evidence for Nerfish's theory of latent genetic talent being intrinsic to arcane spellcasting: There's the Tholarian line of descent, and the fact that Pyrog used his 'wizard's blood' to enhance the Occuli.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

I completely disagree about Krolm creating the Dwarves (no way, no how).

If Krolm was the creator of the Dwarves he would have simply ordered Dorva Stonebeck to make the Dragon Killing Sword. Instead he sought an audience and negotiated a deal with the Dwarven Queen. To suggest that Krolm would have taken such completely out of character actions if he was the creator of the Dwarves is absurd (Bargaining with mortals?? Don't make me laugh). In fact there is no evidence that he had any power in Dwarven lands. He was forced to take physical form outside the Hellfire mountains and travel north to Dtar-Mordin. If Krom created the Dwarves he would have simply appeared in the Dwarven city, presumably at some temple (if he was their creator there would be a temple, right?) and saved himself the long walk. At one point Krolm may been powerful enough to have created the Barbarians, but he lost all his power in the process. Even with all the help of the Dwarves, Krolm is barely able to defeat Andraxal-Kerlaazor (He is severely wounded and it takes him many centuries to recover). He is not the creator of the dwarves.

 

[Alfryd]

You make some interesting points, but I should point out that there are also plenty of humans who have no particular interest in following Krolm's orders, despite their species being most definitely created by Him. It's entirely possible that the Dwarves simply drifted away from the worship of Krolm before humans thanks to their metallurgical/technological inclinations.

Secondly, we don't know the exact details of how physical manifestation works, and I tend to take the Prima Guide with a tiny pinch of salt.

 

[Alfryd]

An alternative (or complementary) origin story would be that the dwarves and gnomes shared a common ancestor, and it was Krolm's intervention that sparked off, or sealed, the separation of the two. It is mentioned that the dwarves were only able to begin surface settlement in Gur Mechina following Krolm's visitation, and that prior to this they lived strictly underground- perhaps a little similar to burrowing hobbitses. ...I always thought of gnomes as being sort of gollum-like...

Exterminate the Gnomes!

 

[Alfryd]

Oh- one other thing I'd love to have included in the game- random backlash effects for spell failure.

 

[unmerged(79717)]

You make some interesting points, but I should point out that there are also plenty of humans who have no particular interest in following Krolm's orders, despite their species being most definitely created by Him. It's entirely possible that the Dwarves simply drifted away from the worship of Krolm before humans thanks to their metallurgical/technological inclinations.

Secondly, we don't know the exact details of how physical manifestation works, and I tend to take the Prima Guide with a tiny pinch of salt.

Well Krolm clearly didn't create the Dragons, nor the Goblins, nor many other creatures in Ardania. Given the abundance on Non-Krolm-created being in Ardania (and the fact it's neither mentioned or inferred in any Majesty cannon) it perfectly reasonable to say the Dwarves are also not the creation of Krolm. Krolm is listed as the "Lord of the Wild", and is positively the creator of Humanity. Dwarves are neither Human nor would the be considered part of "the wild".

As far as Gnomes being related to Dwarves I suppose that's possible but Gnomes don't show up anywhere in Ardanian history until thousands of years after the Dwarves (the first appear in Rendishire c. K.A. 100? ).

 

[Alfryd]

Well Krolm clearly didn't create the Dragons, nor the Goblins, nor many other creatures in Ardania.

Who did, then? There's only a small selection of deities available in the majesty setting, and 6 of them didn't officially exist until after the various ecosystems and many humanoid races were already on the scene. Aside from the Child Gods, you have Krolm, Fey, an unknown northern Goddess (responsible for the Spires of Death and perhaps archaean civilisation,) and the Teratogenitors.

Besides, although the Prima Guide only credits Krolm with creating humanity, the (manual's) Spirit of the Land DOES describe Krolm creating, well- pretty much everything. The two narratives are in contradiction on other points, so it's entirely possible the truth is somewhere in between, but thou shalt not multiply entities beyond neccesity.

 

[Draxynnic]

Well, Goblins are known to follow Grum-Gog. It's possible that Grum-Gog was actually responsible for their creation.

Regarding Dragons... could they have simply arose themselves? Or could Andraxal-Kerlaazor have been a contemporary god that independantly created dragons in its image until slain by Krolm?