Heroes Redux

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Immortality is utterly impossible except in a universe where time (and thus motion) don't exist. If you look at our own universe everything, including fundamental constructs like protons, have a measurable lifespan (in the case of protons the half-life of about 10^36 years). Since the Majesty universe seems to have the same set of physics as our own universe, immortality would be equally impossible. Tolkien may have need a talented linguist and author, but he was an abysmal physicist. Elves can be no more immortal than the grass in the fields, or the sun in the sky, or anything else that exists.

 

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...unless an elf goes back in time and creates a timeloop and all things just repeat itself ad nauseum...

I have to say I like the elves of Tolkien, but them being immortal or not in Majesty doesn't really matter to me.

 

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If you were so inclined I suppose you could loosely define immortality as a spiritual existence beyond physical form. So when Elves die these spirits separate from the material body and pass beyond the physical constraints of this universe and live forever someplace else.
That kind of thing might be plausible, but physical mortality isn't.

There are very specialized organisms (Pinus longaeva for example) that are capable of living for thousands of years, but they do so at the expense that there growth and metabolic rate is minuscule. It's like they are in a perpetual state of hibernation.
Cooker is the Doctor of Biochemistry, so he would have to comment if such a thing would be possible for a mammalian species. Even if Elves were able to do that, I doubt they could move while in a state of perpetual hibernation.

 

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I'm guessing you mean that physical immortality isn't plausible!? If I'm to think about this - why so? If we make it easier for us and say that the soul is immaterial information and the body material information, why can't the the buildingblocks just get changed on the fly like the molecules in us are now. The information will always be there, but the individual buildingblocks that deteriate will be substituted...

 

[Spiderman]

If you were so inclined I suppose you could loosely define immortality as a spiritual existence beyond physical form.

I think that's what Flammifleure was referring to when he said the Tolkien elves reincarnated.

Alfryd: I was only mentioning the dwarf immunity to poison because Flammifleure was mentioning it as part of elven immunity and I was just saying it was already in the game as part of another race, yet that race isn't immortal.

 

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I'm guessing you mean that physical immortality isn't plausible!? If I'm to think about this - why so? If we make it easier for us and say that the soul is immaterial information and the body material information, why can't the the buildingblocks just get changed on the fly like the molecules in us are now. The information will always be there, but the individual buildingblocks that deteriate will be substituted...

There is no physical mechanism for doing that, and doing so would violate the Heisenberg principle and the law of entropy... And, even if it was possible to have that kind of control over matter you would be able to do far more reality bending feats as a result. They would not only be immortal, they would be omnipotent. You could fundamentally alter mater at the sub atomic level. For example one could turn ones feces in to plutonium, then start a nuclear chain reaction and destroy whole cities.

 

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I think that's what Flammifleure was referring to when he said the Tolkien elves reincarnated.

Sure, but followers of Hinduism will tell you all humans have the same ability.

 

[Spiderman]

<shrug> As far as I know, there are no followers of Hindiusm in Tolkien's world

You'll have to take it up with Flammifleure.

Comparing "our" world with Tolkien's world is comparing apples and oranges though - you're trying to use our known physics(?) laws and applying them to another world where another set of laws could be operating.

 

[Alfryd]

This is actually a very interesting discussion. (That said, a few practical suggestions on gameplay or content would also not go amiss. I'd present something more useful myself, but my brain continues to submit it's whining, irrational demands for sleep. o )

 

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There is no physical mechanism for doing that, and doing so would violate the Heisenberg principle and the law of entropy... And, even if it was possible to have that kind of control over matter you would be able to do far more reality bending feats as a result. They would not only be immortal, they would be omnipotent. You could fundamentally alter mater at the sub atomic level. For example one could turn ones feces in to plutonium, then start a nuclear chain reaction and destroy whole cities.

I never said reaching immortality would be easy, but it doesn't seem theoretically impossible. I don't even think it have to go as far as you suggest, but it may depend on how far you go when you define immortality. Is it a continuous living, or must it also include an aspect of 'neverchanging' over time? Also, no one knows for sure what the soul is. Is it enough to keep information to restore a life for example?

I wouldn't mind if the devs made the elves immortal without going into details, if immortal elves are what they want. Even if the laws of nature resemble our laws, I've no problem accepting practically anything, just as long as it's somewhat coherent within the setting. Dragons defy gravity and mages shoot fireballs from their hands, why not immortal elves? That being said, I've no problem with mortal elves either. I want good gameplay, the lore is a periferal thing in Majesty for me, it never caught my interest like the myth-universe for example. It's interesting reading of the monsters and factions, but unless they go from the freedom to choose your missions, which I like, to a more linear mission-progression, they don't need to go overboard with the lore.

Edit: kind of offtopic discussion, which I'll end and do apologise for..

 

[Alfryd]

For that matter, you did pretty well with the Monks -- just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't appreciate the fine structure you've built.

I'd be happy to hear out any corrections you might want to make. I've filled out the Rogues fairly substantially now, along with the Noctatl (...yeah, I decided to rename the adepts.)

As regards immortality- you don't really have to wait for spontaneous proton decay for individual elves to run short of luck, since, if nothing else, random bolts of lightning will get them sooner or later.

What I was imagining would be genuinely immortal are the Elementals, such as Rock Golems, (which in-game help mentions can never be truly destroyed,) since they really aren't subject to the conventional laws of physics as we know them. And when I say immortal, I mean literally invulnerable. The flip side is, they have to stick to regions with an abundance of their native element (such as on their home plane, volcanoes, oceans, etc.) and are incapable of reproduction.


Well, back to brainstorming...
I was thinking that the wizard could have the following sub/prestige classes: The Daemonologist, Disciple, Geomancer, and Mage Artifex, followed by the Illuminatus, Diviner and Teratogenitor. The first 4 are concerned with obtaining a source of power, and the last 3 with it's application, in terms of what areas of obscure knowledge you want to access and develop.


The Daemonologist draws power from a pact with otherworldly beings- specifically, the Elementals. This doesn't mean just 'demons' in the conventional fire-and-brimstone sense, but rather 'spirits'- any genuinely immortal extraplanar conscious-entity not subject to the conventional laws of physical metabolism. This includes Baalr and Succubi, Seraphs and Djinni, Rock Golems and Naka, etc. etc. In addition to allowing the Daemonologist to summon, bind or dismiss beings similar to their speciality (Fire/Earth/Ice/Air) and familiarity with related elemental magic, the Daemonologist's bond with a chosen familiar of this form confers special resistances and longevity.

The Disciple draws power from intensive study into the works, writing and other research of a great Mage of ages past. e.g, Disciple of Tholar, Disciple of Korumkok, Disciple of Baras Nar, Disciple of Fand'Aal, Disciple of Morcanna...

The Geomancer draws power from the ambient energies of the landscape- the aether winds, ley lines and dimensional nexi that course through the material plane. They are particularly adept at projecting their spells over long distances, large areas, and vast timeframes, and much stronger in certain regions of the map than others. They also share an affinity with the inherent magiks of Fey, a plane constructed originally be similar techniques, and have been known to summon it's inhabitants for alliance or discussion.

The Mage Artifex draws power from his/her understanding of material artifacts and the ability to condense, store and channel mana. Their crystal staves can be customised in many respects to permit preparation of additional spells, automate casting, boost enchantment, or draw power from their guilds in a fashion similar to wizard towers, etc. etc... They also have a subtle understanding of kinetic golems, which they may construct according to their own demands.


The following can only be adopted at very high levels, and their effects stack with the previous classes'.

The Illuminati are based on the wizards of Tolkien, trading raw offensive power for nigh-supernatural stamina and other mystic powers, being devoted to the stewardship and preservation of civilisation. They are particularly skilled at wards, abjurations, and counterspells.

The Teratogenitors, (or Shapers) are based on Fal's concept of the monster-maker, skilled in spawning or amalgamating new breeds of life to serve their own purposes, and suborning Aberrations to their will. Whether misguided idealists or soulless nihilists, all are dangerous.

The Diviners are based on the wizards of Earthsea, capable of respectfully tapping 'divine' magic and seeing the weave of the future. Concerned with maintaining a delicate balance between the wilds and humanity, present and future, most are fearful of rash intervention.

 

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As regards immortality- you don't really have to wait for spontaneous proton decay for individual elves to run short of luck, since, if nothing else, random bolts of lightning will get them sooner or later...

There was an idea proposed that in the cases of physical death the elves would spontaneously reencarnate themselves. However there is no evidence that Majesty Elves do this. Quite the contrary in fact. I have killed a dozen different elves with a variety of methods, and as of day 9,999 none have reanimated. Without compelling evidence to the contrary, the only logical conclusion is elves are mortal.

What I was imagining would be genuinely immortal are the Elementals, such as Rock Golems, (which in-game help mentions can never be truly destroyed,) since they really aren't subject to the conventional laws of physics as we know them. And when I say immortal, I mean literally invulnerable. The flip side is, they have to stick to regions with an abundance of their native element (such as on their home plane, volcanoes, oceans, etc.) and are incapable of reproduction...

And those last three words are part of the reason Rock Golems (by definition) aren't alive (and therefore can't be immortal).
What distinguishes living organisms from non-living objects is growth through metabolism and reproduction. Or, to put in more succinctly, life is a member of the class of phenomena which are open or continuous systems able to decrease their internal entropy at the expense of substances or free energy taken in from the environment and subsequently rejected in a degraded form (i.e. negative entropy).
Since Rock Golems don't fit the model, they aren't alive, and any discussion of their there "infinite lifespan" is moot.

 

[Alfryd]

...I have killed a dozen different elves with a variety of methods, and as of day 9,999 none have reanimated. Without compelling evidence to the contrary, the only logical conclusion is elves are mortal.

Uh... okay. But this is, after all, a Heroes Redux thread. I agree that there's no compelling reason to suppose that elves reanimate within the current setting, but perhaps it might make for an interesting gameplay feature to make some reference to the idea that they'll reincarnate in Fey, or something similar.

And those last three words are part of the reason Rock Golems (by definition) aren't alive (and therefore can't be immortal).

Well, yes, but for practical intents and purposes what this boils down is that, for example, a Daemonologist's familiar could simply be re-summoned automatically after a number of days of their death.

Any thoughts on the 'adepts'/rogues/wizard material?

 

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The Rogue abilities are very well-detailed and appropriate.

As for the three sects it's fair to assume you have ideas for them to begin with, but it does seem to suggest the three most common "ideals" for a gathering of rogues: Organized Crime, Society of Assassins, and Secret Police.

 

[Alfryd]

The Rogue abilities are very well-detailed and appropriate.
As for the three sects it's fair to assume you have ideas for them to begin with, but it does seem to suggest the three most common "ideals" for a gathering of rogues: Organized Crime, Society of Assassins, and Secret Police.

Thank you! That's... pretty close to exactly what I had in mind. I'm still at a slight loss to come up with gameplay effects, though...

To give a little more detail, the trade of blades would also include mercenaries, while the crimson hand are modelled partially on the criminal organisations related to Kali.

 

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Question regarding rogues, that i hope haven't been asked yet.
It's written that they are skilled in acrobatics. Great! but what does that mean? Lets say, can they claim on the building? Shoot while standing on it? Try to jump from building to building and recieve comments from charecters around? lets say, healers comments could be interesting if a jump from building to building would be unsuccesfull.. so idea with inspiration from assassins creed..

 

[Alfryd]

Well, I'm just throwing out ideas here. I detailed some uses for acrobatics here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354615&page=2

Jumping from building to build would be interesting, but you'd have to model buildings essentially as aspects of terrain for this to work properly, which either calls for procedural architecture or substantial extra work on the part of the content team. I don't know if that would work.

 

[Alfryd]

I'm sort of torn on how to start detailing the 'basic' wizard. One possibility is to use a 'seed' system to allow wizards to compose and research new spells dynamically. The main difficulties with this is that the AI involved could be demanding, and certain seeds might be strange to have composed, plus, it might not be a simple matter to apply SFX for every possible combination of seeds.

Another possibility is to assign properties to a long list of spells and related schools, and allow the wizard to specialise in these appropriately. For instance, fire/ice/force/universal spells, and abjuration/minor evocation/major evocation/enchantment. It just feels a little clichéd. It's possible some kind of hybrid system would be useful enough.

The other thing that interests me is that different forms of elemental damage would have differing effects. For instance, lightning damage ignores armour and can't be dodged, force damage can't be resisted but won't affect incorporeal targets, fire damage can ignite lighter armours, and cold damage deals part nonlethal fatigue.

 

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Thank you! That's... pretty close to exactly what I had in mind. I'm still at a slight loss to come up with gameplay effects, though...

To give a little more detail, the trade of blades would also include mercenaries, while the crimson hand are modelled partially on the criminal organisations related to Kali.

The Trade would probably result in the hiring of Specialists, which makes Contracting a breeze and results in the Rogue performing sabotage and assassinations with higher than average skill and efficiency. Thefts would be limited to contracted espionage however and thus reflected in the inability to invoke Extortion.

As for the Crimson Hand, one theory is that they'll slowly increase profit and loyalty if they're based off the Thuggee cults. One idea is that they'll slowly raise the town's morale by either converting the citizens to their religion of choice and/or killing off the stubborn cases. They might contribute to fights against other kingdoms, especially if they worship a diametrically opposite deity. Extortion would be boosted as a sufficiently influenced town would gladly fork over the gold for the cause.

The White Orchid as the secret police model might reduce crime and infiltration, and enhance Solarii and Adept patrols, as well as encompass a little bit of the other two factions without their specializations and strengths.

 

[Nerdfish]

Wizards

Each class in a strategy game should play a specific role. Manipulation has been more or less delegated to divine casters. Following That thought, wizards should be the damage dealing specialists. They excel at dealing damage, either at range or close up, to large groups or single targets. This is what i thought of them:

1. Highest Burst damage of all classes.
2. Very high sustained DPS, perhaps not as high as the barbarian, but ...
3. Highest Possible range of all classes with right specialization
4. Exceptional against buildings
5. Powerful AOEs
6. Powerful DoT, perhaps not as high as the priestess, however
7. Very dangerous Team Kill / friendly fire, very good chance of incinerate buildings if fighting in-doors.
8. Use Damage shields / feedback for defense, rather then damage absorption / armor or parry / dodge skills.
9. Some utility and manipulation spells, but nowhere as many as divine casters.

In short, gameplay wizard the wizard's class is a very offensively orientated. they focus on powerful alpha strikes that kills everything and leave nobody left to retaliate - which they are vulnerable to.

As for the lore, magic is the result of interaction between the ether wind and the material world. the Ether wind could be a fundamental force in Ardania, similar to electromagnetism in our own world. This means the study of magic will often involve the understanding of underlying mundane principles. For example, one cannot cast a fireball without knowing the reaction underlying combustion - even if they could manipulate movement probability of oxygen atoms using arcane magic. A lot of these has been figured out empirically over a long period of time, but I would imagine the "modern" wizard community is similar to academia in our own world.

Those are the reasoning behind the arcane/mental/elemental skill tress. Your idea of geomancer / warlocks are specialists divine casters (whose power originate in an external source) They should therefore originate from one of the exiting divine caster classes, rather then wizard.

As for advanced wizard classes, I suggest:

Archmage
The archmages are The shining Pinnacles of Magic Proficiency. They do not know more the most practicing wizards, but they have practiced to a point where magic has became an extension of an archmage's will. An Archmage can use magic as easily as another one of his or her limbs.
Casting known spells require much less effort in the part of an archmage, but material component requirement, if any exsit, still apply. The archmage can quickly launch a dazzling barrage of spell to decimate his or her opponent in the amount of time it takes for other people to blink.

Arcane Scholar
The arcane scholars are those rare individuals who values deep understanding over practical applications. They spent their lives reading dusty tomes in libraries and conducting experiments and exploration too dangerous and obscure for others to make sens of, much less attempt. The Arcane scholar uses magic as tool in his or her study of the natural world, and these investigation in term allow them to use their magic in ways never thought possible.
The Arcane scholar is effective at modifying spells, either making them more powerful, or changing their effects. In practice, this allow them to edit the formal rules that describe spells to create new spells - such as fireballs that explode into cloud of dark smoke that blind enemies

Polymath
Polymath is euphemism for someone who dabbles a bit in everything. The polymath learns everything from stealth to tactics to swordplay to spell casting. While s/he is hardly an expert in anything, they often integrate their skills to achieve that which cannot with a single skill.
The Polymath use magic to boost or argument other skills. In situation where other wizards will be happily blasting away with their elemental magic, a polymath enchants his/her sword arm and fence with the opponent. Obviously this is less efficient against most opponents, but one can easily see wisdom in such action when a antimagic enchantment is applied to their opponent.

That's what I can think of right now. In short, I think of wizards represent rather nerdy, nutty and often antisocial people. and if you can get that right the rest are just details.