Heresies and Anti-Popes

[Doctor Zoviet]

So, I was watching the last youtube video of PdoxLPs Dutch kings of France LP, and it occurred to me to ask, "What would happen if he became a heretic, say Cathar, while he has an anti-pope under his rule? And what would happen if he converted that anti-pope to the heresy?"

Would the heresy get a pope? Would the anti-pope remain an anti-pope, antagonistic toward the Catholic pope, just heretical? Would the anti-pope fail and become a bishop again? If the anti-pope remains an anti-pope, instead of the other two (elevated toward Cathar Pope, or becoming a bishop again), what would happen if you put the Heretic Pope on the gilded throne of Rome? Would the pope now be a heretic? What would that mean for the rest of Catholicism, would there be a mass conversion of Europe?

Just a few thoughts. I'd love to try it myself one day, but I wanted the forums ideas.

 

[unmerged(179107)]

The pope would lose all legitimacy and another one would have been elected in a different place who would receive universal recognition if the current pope was an heretic.

 

[unmerged(57154)]

The pope would lose all legitimacy and another one would have been elected in a different place who would receive universal recognition if the current pope was an heretic.

but what if at this point you've started as the Duke of Toulose, who not only went Cathar, but, reconquered the entire Iberian peninsula (spreading Catharism), and put your Cathar Children as the head of every single Duchy in France, Italy and Germany (and got yourself elected as Emperor).

would not your Cathar Anti-pope then represent the ruling religion in Europe?

 

[Shuriken]

Given that Cathar's didn't believe in a priesthood it would be strange to have them represented in such a way.

 

[Mad King James]

Given that Cathar's didn't believe in a priesthood it would be strange to have them represented in such a way.

This isn't precisely true, in the beginning they didn't have any religious hierarchy but the Cathars established a number of bishops by the 1100s.
A Cathar Pope isn't out of the question, if the King of France became a Cathar and named the Cathar Bishop of Toulouse the Pope of the Cathar Church, presto.

 

[Willem IV]

I wonder if you get a free invasion on France if they are a Cathar, as a true follower of Roma.

 

[the_legion]

If the heretic pope succedes, wouldn't the remaining "catholics" be called heretic?
Calling someone heretic is just a viewpoint.

Example: If protestants succeded to convert 90% of europe, then we would simply
know them as "catholics" and catholics maybe as "old catholic heretics" ...

If the heretic is the only one left he shouldn't be considered "heretic" anymore.
(should only happen in 1 on 1000 games or if someone really expolits it to the max ^^)

 

[Gabool]

@Willem IV
AFAIK, heretics gets free holy war casus belli on their "mother faith" and the "mother faith" gets free holy wars against the heretics. But this only works for catholics<-->cathars (or other catholic heresies) not catholic<-->orthodox. Orthodox<--->orthodox heresy works the same way. I think that sunni and shiite have their own heresies and get declare war on them, since I recall something about a sunni heresy in one of the streams.

 

[unmerged(179107)]

I thought Catharism looked down on and forbade making children. So a Cathar Europe would equate an extinct Europe. Replacing the Pope of Rome with a Cathar Pope would make no sense from Cathar viewpoint, since they had no central authority in teaching or leader AFAIK.

 

[unmerged(57154)]

I thought Catharism looked down on and forbade making children. So a Cathar Europe would equate an extinct Europe. Replacing the Pope of Rome with a Cathar Pope would make no sense from Cathar viewpoint, since they had no central authority in teaching or leader AFAIK.

iirc, Cathars accepted the need to continue the existance of human race. you weren't supposed to derive pleasure form it, though.
Also, i'm pretty sure that only the select few were deemed worthy to live as ascets and preachers, the rank and file were fairly ordinary.

with regards to central authority: while the cathars didn't recognise a single heresiarch, they did honour the authorities form other heresies--there are records of a Bogumil patriarch visiting Provence and being welcomed, both by the Albigensians and the Pararens of Italy. Given how Cathars often adapted to their Christian surroundings in order to survive, it's feasible they would maintain a "pope", in order to sway more gullible Catholics onto their one true path.

 

[Smeel]

you weren't supposed to derive pleasure form it, though.

You'll wonder why it never caught on :rofl:

 

[Kailvin]

Will there be any chance of anti-patriarchs? Or multiple regular ones? (Maybe re-make the pentarchy?) For us orthodox players?

 

[eliphas8]

Will there be any chance of anti-patriarchs? Or multiple regular ones? (Maybe re-make the pentarchy?) For us orthodox players?

I hope so, the effects of having a council of religious heads would actually be quite interesting to work with given the games political systems.

 

[Herald of Andraste]

It wouldn't make sense. Also I prefer not having a religious head as no one can excommunicate you