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The Polish annexation of Georgia, and Papal annexation of south-eastern Anatolia from Serbia in 1899 were reaffirmed

Makes sense.

  • The Holy Roman Empire retained its self-government
  • The Holy Roman Empire would accept responsibility for the War and disband its armed forces for a period of 15 years
  • The Holy Roman Empire was required to pay vast reparations to the victorious powers – with the largest share going to Poland

These three are the big problems. Revenge on the shame and betrayel of this treaty is going to be the driving factor behind the HRE for the next few decades. And like OTL, you've left the germans just enough power to do something with their anger.

The majority of the Empire’s French territories were to be annexed by Skotland and Italy

Creating an ugly and illogical bonfire in the middle of Western Europe. Oops!

An independent, indigenous-ruled French state was created in the Duchy of Normandy with a sovereign of Papal-Egyptian origin

Thats odd.

Large parts of western Germany were annexed by the Archbishopric of Hesse

Thats even odder.

  • The Kingdom of the Netherlands annexed all Dutch speaking territories around its borders
  • Italy would annex the Veneto, Fruili, Tyrol and Istria

That makes sense.

Skotland would annex a portion of northern Germany in the Bight of Heligoland near the Danish border

That doesn't.

  • The Papal States were given permission to establish a protectorate over Templar Sudan
  • The Papal States would annex German Central Africa, Chad and Equatorial Africa
  • The Holy Roman Empire’s North America colonies would gain independence – creating the Republics of California, Texas and Mexico
  • The Empire’s remaining African colonies would remain in its possession

And some not too bad cleanup in Africa (where the papacy basically entirely runs the show), the HRE hasn't had its entire empire taken off it (one less tool for radicals to use against us) and north amercia just got way more complicated.

The most important outcome of these negotiations were the fate of France. One of main factors that had driven Europe to war in 1897 had been the destabilising force of French nationalism. Yet, Lucca had given little more than a fig leaf to the Gallic peoples in the form of an independent Normandy, with the great majority of their homeland being divided by the greedy imperialist powers of Skotland and Italy. Elsewhere, the Holy Roman Empire’s humbling had left Poland, even after the exactions of the War, as Europe’s effective hegemon – with no land power on earth a realistic threat to her dominance.
Finally, a new political movement had arrived on the scene – the Veterans League.
Further west, both the Skots and Italians were forced to fight bloody wars against French separatist rebellions, after the Germans had left large stocks of military equipment in the hands of nationalists when they withdrew from the region.

Origins of facism, France becoming the New balkan trouble spot and pretty much everyone aside from Poland having a horrible decade even after the war...not great. At least everyone avoided Spanish flu? Or is that still coming in the 20's?
 
I believe that this is commonly known as “having one’s cake and eating it.”
I mean stop the armed insurgence, but don't turn the guns or the militants in and just burrow so both sides have a carrot and a stick each :)
 
Dangerous times. Dangerous times.
 
I mean stop the armed insurgence, but don't turn the guns or the militants in and just burrow so both sides have a carrot and a stick each :)

Personally, I’m not sure “vote for us or we’ll start shooting again” is quite the successful compromise you’re perhaps imagining…

If the Brotherhood of the Wolf are anything like other insurrectionary autonomy-seeking groups of history, they probably look quite poorly upon the Polish parliament. Unless they’re about to embark upon some sort of “struggle on two fronts” and subsume themselves into the GTC, I personally won’t be holding my breath as far as seeing them in parliament is concerned.

I suppose, looking from the other direction, if the GTC wanted to get more radical they could start abstaining from parliament and get really serious about declaring the Polish state to be illegitimate. It would cause its own problems, of course, but it’s a possibility…
 
Personally, I’m not sure “vote for us or we’ll start shooting again” is quite the successful compromise you’re perhaps imagining…

If the Brotherhood of the Wolf are anything like other insurrectionary autonomy-seeking groups of history, they probably look quite poorly upon the Polish parliament. Unless they’re about to embark upon some sort of “struggle on two fronts” and subsume themselves into the GTC, I personally won’t be holding my breath as far as seeing them in parliament is concerned.

I suppose, looking from the other direction, if the GTC wanted to get more radical they could start abstaining from parliament and get really serious about declaring the Polish state to be illegitimate. It would cause its own problems, of course, but it’s a possibility…
it's the other way around, it's "we're not shooting for now, but if you ratfuck our delegates again in that parliament of yours, we might as well start shooting". They don't need to coerce the populace into voting for them, they get enough votes to have a voice in the parliament. The problem is decades long refusal by the Tsardom and the establishment to hear their voices.

I think struggle on two fronts is the only viable strategy. Elect some delegates in the parliament and try being heard the correct way and show promise to behave if made part of the system (this is the carrot). Don't shoot but keep the option to start shooting so that's the stick.

I think BotW and GTC need to work together to be a part of the Polish politics and for their rights. Once they see the Polish establishment is becoming trustworthy to them, they can then turn swords into plows.
 
it's the other way around, it's "we're not shooting for now, but if you ratfuck our delegates again in that parliament of yours, we might as well start shooting". They don't need to coerce the populace into voting for them, they get enough votes to have a voice in the parliament. The problem is decades long refusal by the Tsardom and the establishment to hear their voices.

I think struggle on two fronts is the only viable strategy. Elect some delegates in the parliament and try being heard the correct way and show promise to behave if made part of the system (this is the carrot). Don't shoot but keep the option to start shooting so that's the stick.

I think BotW and GTC need to work together to be a part of the Polish politics and for their rights. Once they see the Polish establishment is becoming trustworthy to them, they can then turn swords into plows.

I see what you’re saying. I’m still very much of the view that “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”, but I do see what you’re saying.
 
Just dropping in Tommy to say I'll be--hopefully--getting on the ball with your continuation.

Cheers!
 
I see what you’re saying. I’m still very much of the view that “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”, but I do see what you’re saying.

That is the begining of a wisdom about protest and revolution, not an end point.

In times last and present, it has been observed that the most way of getting anything to change is direct action of some form or another. Potlcial intruige is either part of that, or runs a close second to it.

And if we were to be literalist, stealing rhe masters tools and weapons will quite effectively get the masters removed, provided you took them all. Of course, now a new group had the masters tools and weapons, and just used them to take power. Hence one of the better truths of the statement, which is that it is hard to escape a system utilising that system.
 
That is the begining of a wisdom about protest and revolution, not an end point.

In times last and present, it has been observed that the most way of getting anything to change is direct action of some form or another. Potlcial intruige is either part of that, or runs a close second to it.

Not saying it’s an end point, only that it’s useful to know what to expect out of any given strategy. The Polish state and its representatives (ie the Duma) are probably not going to vote willingly against the integrity of the Polish state (ie for Turanian autonomy), unless under exceptional pressure to do so. It is much easier to create this sort of pressure by direct action rather than political wheeler-dealing, for the simple reason that elections happen on average probably about twice a decade, whereas you can do direct action any day of the week. Elections are also very expensive, very energy-consuming and very unreliable unless you are starting from a position of power. So one’s strategy might rely on parliament to pass the law that finally delivers the goods, sure – but that can happen irrespective of who’s in power (which is as true in Vicky as it is in life), and it’s an end rather than a means.

And if we were to be literalist, stealing rhe masters tools and weapons will quite effectively get the masters removed, provided you took them all. Of course, now a new group had the masters tools and weapons, and just used them to take power. Hence one of the better truths of the statement, which is that it is hard to escape a system utilising that system.

I mean, as you say: stealing the master’s tools =/= dismantling the master’s house. How hard it is to escape a system by using that system is precisely the point.
 
Not saying it’s an end point, only that it’s useful to know what to expect out of any given strategy. The Polish state and its representatives (ie the Duma) are probably not going to vote willingly against the integrity of the Polish state (ie for Turanian autonomy), unless under exceptional pressure to do so. It is much easier to create this sort of pressure by direct action rather than political wheeler-dealing, for the simple reason that elections happen on average probably about twice a decade, whereas you can do direct action any day of the week. Elections are also very expensive, very energy-consuming and very unreliable unless you are starting from a position of power. So one’s strategy might rely on parliament to pass the law that finally delivers the goods, sure – but that can happen irrespective of who’s in power (which is as true in Vicky as it is in life), and it’s an end rather than a means.
Oh now I get why we're looking at it different, in my headcanon the endgame need not be about separation or autonomy for the GTC (or BotW for that matter). It's the end result of being ignored for decades due to the Brusilov line. I don't think they would've been this militant had they had the rights to send representatives to the Duma all along. So, now that the Brusilov line is scrapped, in a generation or so this militancy will drop. On the other hand, it's still good to keep the stick somewhere until they see Tsar/Duma is not playing yet another game on them and they'll get represented for real.
 
1906-1908 – Life Beyond the Line

1611070952367.png

Poland’s first elections after the abolition of the Brusilov Line dramatically reordered her politics – leaving the Duma more splintered than ever before, as no party or faction secured as much as a quarter of the popular vote. With turnout surging to its highest level in many years, nearly 37,000,000 Poles cast their ballots. It was remarkably only 21 years since the empire had had its first election with more than a million votes.

With all eyes were fixed on how the multitudes of the east would vote, the greatest victors of the night were the Grand Turanian Congress. While the Congress had enjoyed a slight swing in its favour among the Tatars of the west, in near enough swept the board, securing crushing margins over Hindu-Muslim Block competitors throughout the densely populated and largely mono-ethnic Tatar provinces between the Volga and Urals. While many Tatars and Mongols in the west hoped to find themselves a place within Polish society, in the east they wanted nothing to do with Kiev. Indeed, of the new seats it gained, the Block secured more new Deputies among the Arabs and Persians than its core Tatar and Mongol constituencies.

Although all the national parties lost voteshare and gained seats, there were clear winners and losers. The Trudoviks faired particularly poorly – struggling to find many new voters in the more rural east, and losing support in the western provinces. Worse, they were overtaken by the National Alliance as the empire’s leading political force. The right had ample reason to be happy – finding a receptive new electorate among the Siberian Russians, many of whom had brought the conservative instincts of rural Poland with them to their new homes. The liberals of the Democratic and Constitutional parties performed particularly well – seeing their voteshares drop more gradually than the socialists and conservatives and enjoying solid seat gains.

On the radical right, the Veterans League, who had fizzed in 1902, lost eight of their ten seats, while Boris Makarov’s Radical Labour Party successfully defended the seats of its five founding Deputies and secured a not unimpressive one and half million votes – building areas of strength among Russians living in the ethnically mixed areas of Muscovy, the Don Valley and Lower Volga.

1611071041469.png

Left to Right: Daniil Chernov and Ivan Tymoshenko
With such a fractured Duma, whose third largest faction in the Turanists were untouchable for the mainstream parties, there was no clear winner. The progressive coalition of socialists, liberals and minority parties that had provided the government with its support in the previous parliamentary session had retained its majority, and Daniil Chernov was eager to keep this alliance together and continue in government. Yet the Trudoviks’ poor showing at the polls had left the party humbled, while the Constitutionalists were emboldened – demanding large concessions to support Chernov for another term.

As the liberals and socialists haggled, the leaders of the National Alliance approached the Constitutionalists with an offer they could not refuse. In exchange for breaking with Chernov, the conservatives would make the Constitutionalist leader Ivan Tymoshenko Prime Minister – forging a new centre-right coalition of conservatives, liberals and the minority parties. The liberals accepted this offer, bringing to an end Poland’s longest continuous premiership since Mikhail Brusilov.

This realignment represented the culmination of an effort by members of the rightwing elite to find a new role for the conservative movement in the post-Brusilov and post-Kazimzade world. They would agree to a truce with liberals and minority parties on the cultural issues that once defined them, uniting behind a desire to limit the rapid expansion of state power over the economy driven by the socialists. The alliance left the outgoing Prime Minister with a tremendous sense of betrayal, and his rage would leave aggressively combative leader of the opposition, limiting Tymoshenko’s freedom of manoeuvre in the Duma.

1611071071527.png

The development of Tatar politics over the course of the decade from the turn of the century had been deeply alarming to outsiders and moderates alike. Separatism was already growing rapidly in strength before the Great War, yet had risen to assume a dominant position within the community – with the Grand Turanian Congress enjoying a degree of popular support within its constituency that the national parties could only dream of. It had the power to rally millions to the polls and flood the streets from Irkutsk to Moscow on a whim. Yet was truly terrified the political establishment was its developing relationship with violence. Prior to the Great War, Turanism, at an elite level at the very least, had been a largely peaceful and democratic movement. The Congress’ leadership remained adamant that it had no connections to the Brotherhood of the Wolf and their long running insurgency, yet pointedly refused to condemn them for their violence – laying the blame for any destruction at the feet of the Polish state that had failed to acquiesce to the national aspirations of the Turanian peoples. At a grassroots level, the picture was rather murkier. Local party associations frequently conducted fundraising on the behalf of guerilla groups, offering them shelter, supplies and valuable connections. Members and even some hotheaded Deputies were happy to lionise rebel leaders – helping to create a romantic image of the Brotherhood as folk heroes across much of Eurasia. This intertwining of separatism and violence only further distanced the Congress from Poland’s other parties, leaving a great oppositional bulwark in the Duma and Polish society at large.

1611071163003.png

The years after 1906 Poland’s radical right develop rapidly organisationally and ideologically. The emergence of Makarov’s movement had clearly taken the wind out of the sails of the Veterans League – poaching a large part of its electorate. The two groups therefore agreed to unite into a single party late in 1906 – forming the Radical Republican Party. One of the key outcomes of this merger was the introduction of the Radicals to the Free Corps. Prior to 1906 these had been essentially little more than clubs for disgruntled Great War veterans associated with the League, that frequently became involved in marches and street brawls. Under the RRP’s direction they would develop into the physical force street-arm of the Polish Radicalism – developing an infamous blackshirt uniform and attempting to violently engage Turanists, socialists and liberals in an effort to physically dominate the empire’s public places.

Conscious of the novelty of his movement and the wide array of, often unconventional, ideas held by his supporters. Makarov made a significant effort to give his party a clear ideological expression through the publication of what amounted to the core political manifesto of Radicalism. In ‘The Decline of the Slavs’, Makarov outlined his reading of history: describing how at the moment of the Polish state’s pinnacle of power at the close of the Great War, the nation was betrayed by a corrupt, effete, liberal elite who stabbed the millions who had sacrificed their lives in the back by selling the Russian nation out to the minorities. In order to save the Russian people from degeneracy and, ultimately, destruction, a national revolution was required that would sweep away Polish Tsardom and establish a new Russian Republic, that would restore the virility and power of the Slavs and ensure their mastery of all the lands between the Oder and the Pacific, and with it, the world. The Decline of the Slavs quickly became an unexpected sensation – outselling any other political text in Polish history to that point.

1611071194334.png

Within the Duma, the government stood on very unstable ground. With the Trudoviks happy in an oppositional mood, there was little hope for crossbench alliances, while the Turanist Deputies were happy to frustrated the government at every turn. Within the governing alliance, finding common ground among pious Jews, conservatives, secular liberals, Christians and Muslims was not easy task. The wider conservative movement in particular was thrown into existential crisis by its participation. In order to keep the minority parties on side, and in line with the Constitutionalists’ liberal beliefs, the government had offered a number of concessions – offering investments in minority areas, promising parity in funding for Jewish and non-Jewish schools and appointing members of the Christian and Hindu-Muslim Blocks to prominent government posts. These policies split the parties of the National Alliance. The National Liberals, whose original raison d’etre had disappeared with the fall of the Brusilov Line, were strong supporters of the Prime Minister, while the Agudah Yisrael were aghast at being party to a government that seemed to be continuing the process of dismantling Jewish power, having little interest in the centre-right economic consensus with the liberals. In between, the National Conservatives were internally divided between sceptics and supporters of Tymoshenko’s administration. All this caused frequent parliamentary rebellions, leaving a government often paralysed to act.

1611071215645.png

On September 8th 1907 Tsar Nikolai passed away after an incredible sixty years on the throne, aged eighty four. During his long reign he had overseen Poland’s development into a mass democracy, and its transformation from a backward agrarian state to one of the world’s leading industrial powers. Crucially, his willingness to step back and allow the Duma to exercise political power, outwith a handful of sometimes controversial interventions, had been crucial to the development of a democratic culture. His death was widely mourned across the political spectrum, and robbed the Tsardom of the intangible authority attached to long-lived monarchs as his thirty three year old grandson Radoslav IV ascended to the throne.

1611071291880.png

Economically, by 1907, Poland’s postwar boom appeared to be slowing down. With German economy showing the early signs of recovery, Poland’s industries started to face competition from Europe once more while some investors that had sought refuge in Poland over the past decade drifted back to Europe. More concerningly, many of the industries that had been formed or expanded during the preceding years were not producing the level of returns that had been hoped for during the exuberant years of the boom.

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In 1908 international affairs intervened to upset Poland’s already unstable political balance. Since the end of the Great War the Holy Roman Empire had been in a sorry state of instability and poverty as it struggled to rebuild. In 1907 a rightwing national conservative government came to power on the promise of restoring order and national pride. While they had successfully ended the street violence that had plagued Germany for years, their next target was the issue of war reparations. These payments had crippling effect on the Imperial economy – weighing down its budget and sending the nation’s wealth streaming out of the nation in torrents. In May 1908, the Imperial government took the bold step of unilaterally rescinding all reparation payments.

Across Europe governments were up in arms, with the Papacy calling for military action to force the Germans’ hand. Within Poland, the issue was explosive. The RRP led rallied mass demonstrations demanding war in retribution for German insolence. Yet the cabinet was split. Tymoshenko, a government minister during the Great War, was extremely dovish. While the Polish state had invested in a great many things since 1902, its armed forces were not one of them. Indeed, the Polish army was smaller in 1908 than at any point since the 1880s and its weapons had not been updated since then. While Poland could certainly defeat the Germans, an invasion might not prove as easy as many assumed. Furthermore, while far right opinion might have been pro-war, Tymoshenko sensed a pacifist majority that had no interest in seeing another generation lost for the sake of money.

1611071553172.png

The Prime Minister’s commitment to a diplomatic solution clashed violently with one of the key members of his coalition – the Agudah Yisrael. The staunchly conservative party had been straining under the terms of the coalition for years – frustrated to be supporting a government that appeared uninterested in supporting religious interests and undermined the dwindling Judeao-Russian power. In truth, this national outrage offered the Israelites the excuse they had been searching for since the early days of the coalition to break with the liberals and force their more moderate conservative allies into a new approach. As Tymoshenko rejected the call to war, the Agudah Yisrael left the government – depriving it of its majority.

This action left the National Conservatives in a perilous position. If they remained in the government they could conceivably muddle on as a minority, maintaining their alliance with the liberals and their broader realigment to the centre ground. Yet if they did so they would almost certainly divide the alliance between Israelites and moderate conservatives that had been at the centre of Polish conservatism since the 1870s. The National Conservatives chose to keep the ideological family together, ditching Tymoshenko, going into opposition and joining with the Agudah Yisrael in a motion of no confidence.

As Tymoshenko scrambled to try to avoid the collapse of his ministry he was forced to turn to the man he had betrayed in order to seize the premiership in 1906 – Daniil Chernov. The former prime minister was happy to bring his Trudoviks back into the government, yet he refused to play second fiddle. Chernov would have to be restored as premier, and the socialists as the government’s leading force. Unwilling to capitulate, Tymoshenko therefore chose to dissolve the Duma and call for new elections.
 
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“A *spins wheel* independent, indigienous-ruled French state was created in *spins wheel* the Duchy of Normandy with a sovereign of *spins wheel* Papal-Egyptian origin.”

Wild times in West Europe :p

Here’s hoping the Brotherhood of the Wolf can hang on long enough to organise the anti-fascist resistance on the ground when it comes. With the Brusilov line coming down at the end of the war, I can’t help but feel we’re about to see a seismic outpouring of pretty ugly national sentiment – particularly once the war indemnity bubble bursts and everyone blames the socialists for overheating the economy…

Haha, I don't want to spoil anything, but that little Duchy has an important future ahead of it! ;)

In these first years after the fall of the Line we've seen the right try to accomodate itself to the new reality. But with the conservaitves withdrawing from the government and the far right solidifying itself there is a real risk of things polarising here.

Whoa, OK, so it seems at least Polish Fascism here is a lot closer to being Nazbol than OTL. Here's hoping he can never take power, because if this Poland goes Fascist, and said regime is able to consolidate power, I don't see who realistically would be able to stop them.

A fully militarised, totalitarian Polish state will certainly be a fearsome force on the world stage. That is the perspective of Makarov himself, who believes that if the Russians realise their full potential they will be in a position to rule the world.

Good to see that Poland has had a Clement Atlee moment coming out of the war. Good old Daniil Chernov!

He did a good Clem impression, but after losing support and the premiership in 1906, we will have to see if 1908 will be his comeback year!

Chernov has more than earned his place in history, it would seem. But it's easy to see how Marazov and the Brotherhood of the Wolf could set the debate over nationalism in a way that undercuts all of the mainstream parties.

The Fall of the Line has caused a real issue for those hoping to make the new Polish state work, as politics is so fractured. With so many Tatar and Mongol voters effectively opting out of Polish politics by lining up behind the Turanists, and the Radicals starting to make their presence felt, it is harder to cobble together the numbers in the Duma to govern, with so many divergent interests needing to cooperate - and the presence of those extremes helps pull other more moderate parties away from one another.

I really enjoy this AAR but man those borders are ugly! Despite that, I totally look forward to what’s next. I wonder if we will see the establishment of a true France, or if the French Nationalists will all be suppressed.

Well, paradox games have a tendency to create horrific border gore :p. You all should feel lucky I am sparing you from what America actually looks like in game, as I will present a cleaner version in DH.

As for France, the flame of Gallic nationhood is not forgotten yet!

France might be a problem in the future, and I would've hoped some of the newly created countries to be puppets of Poland, but alas. There was probably nothing to be done about it, but the Pope especially received a lot of colonial land. On the other hand, what Poland received was indeed strategic as explained later in the AAR.
I wonder at this point which parties have in their to-do list to abolish Tsardom.
I fully support this kind of legitimate struggle!
Huh, maybe the Lucca agreement was engineered so, to sow discord everywhere while Poland peacefully prospers?
Finally! I look forward to how things will look in the next elections
:eek:
I'm halfway sad this part is ending but halfway excited a whole new adventure will begin soon. This megacampaign is awesome.
Maybe a successful election will redirect both the support of people and the leadership of the Brotherhood from armed to in-parliament struggle (while still keeping the armed arm intact to keep as their version of the stick)?

We will return to France before the end of the V2 portion of the AAR. As for potential puppet. I had hoped I might be able to create a Bohemian puppet - liberating some fellow Slavs along the way - but in game they didn't have cores so it wasn't possible sadly. Aside from that, only the HRE actually had cores on most of the German lands near my border - so any puppet would have been very distant.

In terms of Republicanism. Ironically the far right are the biggest advocates of it at present, with the RRP putting in in their name! While the Turanists also back a republican regime, but in the form of a separate Tatar-Mongol state of course. Nrlone of the mainstream parties are anti-monarchist - although we can be sure than plenty of Trudoviks will have Republican sympathies on egalitarian grounds.

I am glad you're enjoying the story :). This has definitely been my favourite part to write. Before I revived this I read back over the AAR to date and it was fun to see how we've travelled through 1,000 years of history :D.

Makes sense.
These three are the big problems. Revenge on the shame and betrayel of this treaty is going to be the driving factor behind the HRE for the next few decades. And like OTL, you've left the germans just enough power to do something with their anger.
Creating an ugly and illogical bonfire in the middle of Western Europe. Oops!
Thats odd.
Thats even odder.
That makes sense.
That doesn't.
And some not too bad cleanup in Africa (where the papacy basically entirely runs the show), the HRE hasn't had its entire empire taken off it (one less tool for radicals to use against us) and north amercia just got way more complicated.
Origins of facism, France becoming the New balkan trouble spot and pretty much everyone aside from Poland having a horrible decade even after the war...not great. At least everyone avoided Spanish flu? Or is that still coming in the 20's?

You can blame the AI for some of the oddball moves like Skotland annexing Hamburg, and the distribution of cores for who ended up getting land liberated :p.

We can already see signs of a German backlash - with the crisis over reparations bringing down our government :eek:.

And we shall wait to see if our reward for making it through another decade is a global pandemic :p.

Dangerous times. Dangerous times.

As ever! You'd think things would be more stable after winning a world war :p.

Just dropping in Tommy to say I'll be--hopefully--getting on the ball with your continuation.

Cheers!

Glad to have you aboard for the return :).

I think independence for Turania is a dead letter. There are too many Slavs in Siberia for any independence to be practical without a massive amount of ethnic cleansing.

It depends on the boundaries. There is a stretch of land roughly from the Volga to Lake Baikal in which Tatars and Mongols are a sizeable majority (even if Slav settlers are starting to move in). But of course a state with those borders would leave millions and millions of Tatars and Mongols marooned in the ethnically mixed borderlands in the west, never mind those Tatars that have migrated to places like Siberia in the past century but are surrounded by a Russian majority.



And on the debate on political violence:
This little conversation led me to add the section in today's update on the burgeoning relationship between the Turanist movement and political violence. Armed struggle, or atelast the lionisation of it, is becoming a core facet of their ideology. That is furthering the process of driving a wedge between the Tatars and the Polish state - winning them millions of votes, but pushing any prospect of dialogue with the state further away. How this will develop in the future remains an open question!
 
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The Polish state and its representatives (ie the Duma) are probably not going to vote willingly against the integrity of the Polish state

Most states can't vote for succession. One of the things that goes along with codified written constitutions is an underlying loyalty to the preservation and continuation of the state. That is, it is legally impossible for a government to allow for succession unless specifically allowed for (or added into) their constitution.

Poland however doesn't have this problem, because much like the British, the Duma is backed by the Monarchy and convention to do pretty much whatever it wants, if it can pass through itself. So the polish could (presumably) hold a vote in the duma for succession, or let a democratic referendum decide.

For a variety of reasons, it probably won't happen, but that it is possible means more poltcial pressuring than there would be in more 'modern states' where armed uprising is pretty much all they can do.

It is much easier to create this sort of pressure by direct action rather than political wheeler-dealing, for the simple reason that elections happen on average probably about twice a decade, whereas you can do direct action any day of the week. Elections are also very expensive, very energy-consuming and very unreliable unless you are starting from a position of power. So one’s strategy might rely on parliament to pass the law that finally delivers the goods, sure – but that can happen irrespective of who’s in power (which is as true in Vicky as it is in life), and it’s an end rather than a means.

It looks like the russians, slavs, tatars etc are pushing for this and utilising their millions of votes to push their agenda through as kingmakers. Eventually, their population will outrank everyone else and they'll get what they want.
 
Now, how well are our emergent Fash going to be able to spin the oncoming economic slowdown to look like being sold out by the liberals? The Great War obviously didn’t break Poland, so they’re playing without their strongest card, but with the massive ethnonationalist dimension to Slavic ‘radicalism’ I reckon it’s a small enough step to imagine that not breaking Germany hard enough becomes the major grievance (betraying the sacrifice of the Great War by not removing the HRE from existence, yadda yadda yadda).

At the same time, looks like we’ve got standard Nazis coming up in Germany. So the next war is going to be fought between those who thought the HRE was pushed too far, and those who thought it wasn’t pushed far enough. Yikes.
 
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A deadlock of sorts is happening, which could easily give rise to... unfortunate forces.
 
Events in Poland are trending in a dangerous direction, for sure, and this crisis in the HRE is hardly going to help matters.
 
We're getting into fafist ideology now, which is rarely a fun place. Reader beware...

Here's the big problem with facism starting in Poland...they need the Jews to be a powerless minority to 'explain' various failures of society. Or they need to find some other powerless minority to pick on...I guess.

Can't really say the Jews are secretly in charge of everything with a straight face in this world. There's no secret about the Polish empire being heavily influenced/ran off a tradition of Judaism. And its pretty clear the rest of the world isn't run by Jews because...Well, most of them are in Poland (or Israel).

What are facists going to say? The Jews built the worlds largest and greatest empire, but also secretly want to destroy it?

They can, I suppose, still lobby for (it seems in this case) a purely slavic ethno state (with presumably everyone else carted off to...you know where). But there's still a huge hole in their ideology, in the principle of the thing.
 
I think that any Turanian independence would also result in the Fascists being swept to power, followed by a reconquest of the Turkic lands and a bunch of very nasty things that forum rules preclude me from saying. Plus Turkish independence would split the Polish parts of the Empire in two, an untenable situation. Accommodation with the Turanists is the only option that's both moral and realistic.
 
But there's still a huge hole in their ideology, in the principle of the thing.

It strikes me that things are being set up for the Turanians to fill the abjected scapegoat hole, but I do agree: as soon as I saw the picture of (presumably in-world Jewish) blackshirts, I thought, hang on a second… This is a bit iffy. Even if the ‘Radicals’ can create some sort of anti-non-Slavism, it’s not going to be able to function in the way that antisemitism functions wrt fascism…

And as I said above, I’ll be interested to see how the *fash square the economic question, because even if we’re now seeing the inevitable slowdown of an overheated economy, it’s hardly Weimar Republic bad. Unless one feels that Poland has been hard done by in the War by not steamrollering everything else into non-existence in the peace, there’s really nothing that major to use for a “stab in the back” myth. As things stand it just looks to me like we’re in for ethnonationalistic populism, maybe with some post-Great War cult-of-youth/-technology stuff thrown in.