Help... with Byzantium 1.24

[SlamDunc1990]

It takes a bit of luck to get an alliance with Hungary. You need them to rival Ottos, improve relations from day 1 & hire a dip rep advisor. Also helps if they rival Venice and so do you. I had to restart a fair few times but certainly doable.

Now I am thinking I should try to take some islands from Venice while I wait for truce with Ottos to end... think their navy may be too strong though.

 

[Rocketskates]

Its done, i got all cores back apart from Edirne, a 88% warscore, karaman got 3, candar got 2, the Knights got Sugla( eventhough turkish minors didnt declare on the Ottos, nobody did actually which is odd.)
I just allied Albania after moving my ships and units into position and surprisingly the turks moved even more troops to siege down Naxos capital (20k). They didnt try any naval engagements either. Far from over but atleast this is nice, ofcourse if i could negotiate it would have been a different peace :>

Thanks everyone, any further advice is appreciated, the Candar expansion is kinda out of the question, with Karaman they are quite powerful.

 

[Govinator]

I have done several attempts at getting a decent Byzantium start and the only thing that worked for me was abusing Skandeburg as a general, repeatedly wiping an Ottoman stack while the other stack works on Constantinople. Then I siege down Edirne and the other fort (Macedonia?) before reclaiming Constantinople. Only issue I had with this strategy was really high war exhaustion.

That said, I have found that the Byzantines are just so... weak, after beating down the Ottomans. I am only ever able to get the Balkans in the first war, after which every power in the region dogpiles a weakened Ottoman empire. I am never able to fully reclaim Anatolia before I have a large and angry Mamluk horde on my borders. How do you all play a post-opening Byzantium? I can't really afford large amounts of mercenaries, and the overall manpower pool is fairly poor.

 

[Rocketskates]

I have done several attempts at getting a decent Byzantium start and the only thing that worked for me was abusing Skandeburg as a general, repeatedly wiping an Ottoman stack while the other stack works on Constantinople. Then I siege down Edirne and the other fort (Macedonia?) before reclaiming Constantinople. Only issue I had with this strategy was really high war exhaustion.

That said, I have found that the Byzantines are just so... weak, after beating down the Ottomans. I am only ever able to get the Balkans in the first war, after which every power in the region dogpiles a weakened Ottoman empire. I am never able to fully reclaim Anatolia before I have a large and angry Mamluk horde on my borders. How do you all play a post-opening Byzantium? I can't really afford large amounts of mercenaries, and the overall manpower pool is fairly poor.

after the 1st war, it isnt over, i allied hungary and mameluks and austria so Ottos didnt DoW me right after, he still had Edirne. It got involved in an east Anatolian war and i attacked with Albania, took Edirne, blocked the straigth, trapped one of its armies in Europe and destroyed it. Took back all of my remaining cores, and released bulgaria for its cores. Mameluks didnt expand much, they picked a weaker target. Expanded a bit by being opportunistic, Thedoro, Candar (nicked right in front of it as it attacked).
If you control the Boshoprus you can achieve victories without much fighting. Strong allies as detterent. There was a few close calls when Poland attacked Hungary while the last and cruical fighting happened in Anatolia but i survived. Rolling a disc advisor(fire one until its a disc) and going for the disc icon helps a lot for your armies.

Maybe you should focus on achieving your goals, instead of destroying the Ottoman army.

 

[Govinator]

Maybe I simply got unlucky, because after wiping the first Otto 16k stack, it took me a really long time to beat down the fort in Macedonia before I could move my troops back out of Greece. I can try some different openings but my issue still comes back to feeling fairly weak after the Ottomans have been beaten up a bit. Merc's are far too expensive to really rely on, and that small manpower pool is difficult to deal with when Byzantium ends up sandwiched between Hungary and a blobbing Mamluk horde that can afford 50k+ troops. Should I go for quantity ideas to help bolster the manpower/force limit issues?

 

[Dominion]

It takes a bit of luck to get an alliance with Hungary. You need them to rival Ottos, improve relations from day 1 & hire a dip rep advisor. Also helps if they rival Venice and so do you. I had to restart a fair few times but certainly doable.

Now I am thinking I should try to take some islands from Venice while I wait for truce with Ottos to end... think their navy may be too strong though.

Hungary alliance is... 1.21? 1.22? can't remember.
Nowadays you bet on a 50/50 chance. If they attack you it's game over, if they attack Albania you ally them and join the war.
Not the most elegant solution, but the easiest one atm.

If you want a guaranteed way without reworks it gets a bit more difficult. Which is why there have been quite a few "omg Byz is impossible now" threads since dip changes introducing the "too many diplomatic relations" issue went live.

Long story short: Sit around doing nothing, wait for them to attack Albania, ally them, win.
It's a lot easier than it was in the past. RNG based though. Easier nonetheless.

The alliance with Hungary is pretty much dead though. That's way too much RNG to be considered an actual strategy in my book.

 

[Rocketskates]

Maybe I simply got unlucky, because after wiping the first Otto 16k stack, it took me a really long time to beat down the fort in Macedonia before I could move my troops back out of Greece. I can try some different openings but my issue still comes back to feeling fairly weak after the Ottomans have been beaten up a bit. Merc's are far too expensive to really rely on, and that small manpower pool is difficult to deal with when Byzantium ends up sandwiched between Hungary and a blobbing Mamluk horde that can afford 50k+ troops. Should I go for quantity ideas to help bolster the manpower/force limit issues?

maybe you are using the wrong units, one is for pure offense, the other is more defensive but does no dmg, i was switching between them depending on situation, also my general rolled a siege pip so that helped immensily along with 10% disc from 2 sources, spynetwork on ottos help the siege too

 

[Dominion]

maybe you are using the wrong units, one is for pure offense, the other is more defensive but does no dmg, i was switching between them depending on situation, also my general rolled a siege pip so that helped immensily along with 10% disc from 2 sources, spynetwork on ottos help the siege too

Zwirbaum's unit guide. End of discussion.

One of the only two guides that are mandatory to read if you are at least novice.

Zwirbaum and Atwix are the motivation, reason and pseudo-rivals pushing me beyond what I used to play like.

 

[Rocketskates]

i want a medal for understanding the units without reading any guides

 

[Snugwow]

I've tried 3 different Byz campaigns in the new patch and it's been rather easier than it used to be, at least in my experience. 2 of my attempts I was able to be successful without any restarts, but that can perhaps be chalked up to luck. Much of the strategy hasn't really changed since the last few patches. Typical starting moves are the same like deleting the fort in the Peloponnese, etc.

I immediately begin by using the estate actions to get 150 military power from the nobility estate and the 40 tradition general. Set national focus to military, the whole goal is to always attempt to be ahead or at least on par with Ottoman mil tech. I start improving relations with Hungary and Poland, though not once in any of my games was I able to get Poland to ally me. I always ally Trebizond, Wallachia, and Theodoro, which usually dissuades the Ottomans from attacking before their other likely initial targets. build infantry up to force limit and sell the light ships you start out with to Aragon. Seek to build 2 heavy ships for your navy and the rest galleys. I usually go slightly over forcelimit with galleys and also disband some of the cogs to replace with galleys. You don't want to use all of your sailors though since you will need to some to reinforce after engaging with the Ottoman fleet in the first war.

Typically then the Ottomans will attack one of their small eastern neighbors or a war with Venice. Restart if you are their initial target unless you have a strong alliance to oppose them. Hungary and Wallachia will virtually always accept an offensive war with Ottomans if you promise them territory, never give them territory though. It is also smart to improve relations with the Mamluks early game since they will sometimes help if you are at war with the Ottomans by declaring their own war on them, don't allow them to get too big though, since they quickly snowball into a very formidable opponent with the more valuable Egypt.

The first war should be declared by you if you have alliance support and the Ottomans are preoccupied fighting their eastern neighbors or Venice, which often makes it easy to trap their army on an island somewhere. The easiest attempt was when I was DOW'd by the Ottomans with all my allies ready who just dogpiled them and eliminated their armies. Trebizond is underrated as an ally since they will just start occupying Anatolian provinces and the Ottomans usually ignore them. It's just a matter of siegeing down Edirne in the first war and the Ottomans will collapse with the blocked strait. If you are able to safely intercept small Ottoman forces with your army, do it. I try to ensure that I also have a morale or discipline advisor active during the war, but it is quite easy to stackwipe small Ottoman armies in the early game. Even just getting the Ottomans to just give up Edirne in the first war and nothing else if you can't decisively defeat them will be acceptable. If you have Edirne you won't need any allies to beat them in the next war in most cases.

Do not allow the Mamluks to start eating Anatolia though while you are eating bits from the Ottomans. Hungary will not ally with you anymore after the initial war where you don't give them any land, so try to replace them with France, Muscovy, or ideally a Castile with both Aragon and Naples under PU. Wallachia will usually be able to be placated and I keep them as an ally so I can diplo-vassalize them later. Try and keep relations high with Muscovy at least since they will often rival you if you aren't allies yet once you start becoming more powerful. I always go after Serbia once I get my cores back and I try to ensure that I have a border with them from land taken from the Ottomans so I don't have to rely on transports. Venice is a pushover once your navy can defeat theirs. The 2 heavy ships built at the start should still be alive and they will be very useful in defeating the Venetian navy.

As long as the Byzantines aren't the Ottoman's first war it's quite possible to defeat them within only a few decades.

 

[gia257]

Hungary alliance is... 1.21? 1.22? can't remember.
Nowadays you bet on a 50/50 chance. If they attack you it's game over, if they attack Albania you ally them and join the war.
Not the most elegant solution, but the easiest one atm.

If you want a guaranteed way without reworks it gets a bit more difficult. Which is why there have been quite a few "omg Byz is impossible now" threads since dip changes introducing the "too many diplomatic relations" issue went live.

Long story short: Sit around doing nothing, wait for them to attack Albania, ally them, win.
It's a lot easier than it was in the past. RNG based though. Easier nonetheless.

The alliance with Hungary is pretty much dead though. That's way too much RNG to be considered an actual strategy in my book.

ive beat them while i was caught in a war with karaman and was declared on (they didnt declare on albania afaik), is your case an early declaration?

 

[Dominion]

ive beat them while i was caught in a war with karaman and was declared on (they didnt declare on albania afaik), is your case an early declaration?

Yea, only talking about a DoW pre 1450.

If you have enough time you can do whatever you want with any nation, obviously ^^

 

[gia257]

Yea, only talking about a DoW pre 1450.

If you have enough time you can do whatever you want with any nation, obviously ^^

no no my war was pre 1450 (47), so perhaps not for everybody, but it is possible to be declared on by the ottomans and win, so long as you managed your alliances

I took early as 1444 or close to that, and yeah if you get caught without a single ally and before your ships i dont see it being nice

 

[Skilu]

Try this guys it works for me for 80%
1. Delete all your forts
2. Dismiss you cavalry and sent rest troops to greece
3. Build 2 galleys in Constantinopole and 1 in both your greece province
4. Improve relations with Albania Wallachia and Karaman next take alliance with them and take also alliance with Trebizond and Theodoro
5. When ships are ready take all to the constantinopole and get good admiral
6. Now build more troops in your greece province to max force limit
7. Now wait for the ottomans declare war on you. They make it in my games for 75% even if they have alliance the will fight alone
8. They will now siege constantinopole so swim with your ships out of Cons, you should win this battle also click attache on your main troops and march to Selanik, it will be nice if you will get general/monarch with siege skills. Mr Skanderbeg and Athenes will help you take no forts province in greece, you can also take 1k man and help them sieges. At same tame Wallachia in 90% will come to atache siege in Selanik and Karaman, Trebizond and Theodoro will siege Anatolia at same time
9. When Ottos will take Constantinopole you will need to make some smart fighting, usualy they should split into 2 group one will march to anatolia (where you western alliance took some provines) second group will march to greece and you need to be carrefoul to do not something stupid.
There is 2 options you can put some troops into hight mountain and wait for them to attack you so you will let 3 troops in selanik and with the rest (attached alliances) go to the province where you are 100% sure you can win and then back to selanik.
Second option is to let them go to Athenes, wait for end siege in selanik and move here with you attached alliances to wipe ottos here.
10. Now when you wiped them here you can march to Edirne and siege it down when ottos will be busy fighting with you eastern alliances. Its also hard step. If you will see ottos go reconquest selanik let stay 3 troops in edirne and go fight ottos in selanik, do not something stupid here.
11. When you end siege edirne you can go constantinopole its should be fast siege if you have general with siege skills and you delete fort here so its only 1000defenders here. Ottos should be scare to attack you here now, sometimes they can attack but Mr Skanderbeg will banish their anals
12. Now when you end siege Constantinopole go take rest of ottos provinces in west. You can also try to help Karaman to fight with ottos now on their side but i dont recommended, maybe Ottos dont have arms now but they still have legs so they can kick you. Fighting in west its something like 30% to do not lose with Ottos.
13. Now you can peace with them and decide what to do next. I always go search for big major country to protect you from venice, they will attack you some years after war and its possiblity its something like 55%

What you should now to help yourself
- you can build more troops when you siege edirne to help you, spit on maintenance becouse you will got profits from war peace
- take a look at you goverment guys, admiral with +10% navy morales can help you, also general with 10% troops morale or 5% disciple will help too ( take them when war start)
- you need restart only when ottos attack you before you get all aliances or after 1450(they will get alliance with tunis or france) and you are srew, also need restart when venice or geona attack you faster then ottos, but it shouldnt happens if you have fast alliance. There its 4-5% chance at start that will Karaman riv you so you need restart.
- If otto break you alliance with albania = restart 20% chance
- You can alliance also with hungary but ottos can be more scare and dont attack you.
- You can also try alliance with Knight or ramazan or dulkadir or kandar but usually they will hate you when you make alliance with Karaman.

Ok many luck for you guys, tell me what do you think about that strategy. Like i say i tested it more than 100times and it works for for 80% (sometimes Skandi love to stay in Achaya beaches or Dracula try to search for something in Poland/Moldavia xD.
Have a luck guys

 

[Dominion]

no no my war was pre 1450 (47), so perhaps not for everybody, but it is possible to be declared on by the ottomans and win, so long as you managed your alliances

I took early as 1444 or close to that, and yeah if you get caught without a single ally and before your ships i dont see it being nice

Byzantium players are their very own science I'd throw the run and restart.

Karaman+Byz vs Ottos in 1447 sounds interesting. Got an AAR, screens or a video? Would love to check it out.

 

[gia257]

i see your confusion now lol, I was in a war with karaman when ottos declared, as in, vs karaman, not alongside them

allies were the expected, hungary+wallachia