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Like Kiev a centre of princely authority, Vladimir-Suzdal maintained great continuity with the monumental and aristocratic spirit of Kievan Byzantine art, producing works of exceptional quality.

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/chrono1.html
chronology of russian history, rulers, who absorbs who and when.

SUZDAL In modern Vladimir oblast. A Principality within the orbit of Kiev from 1134, it became a Grand Principality from 1212.

John I.............................................1410-1412 d. 1417
John II Strongbow..................................1412-1414
Alexander II Potbelly..............................1414-1417
Alexander III Vzmeten..............................1417-1418
George IV (Pr.of Shuya)............................1418- ?
Basil IV Shuisky.................................... ? -1446
John III (Pr.of Mozhaysk)..........................1446-1447 d. aft. 1454
Theodore Shuisky........................................1447 d.aft.1447
Daniel II..........................................1447-1451
To Muscovy thereafter...


VLADIMIR One of the primary cities of Mediaeval Russia, the chief city, in fact, from 1169 to 1240. Located about 100 miles (160 km.) east of Moscow.
Alexander II the Fugitive.........................1326-1327 d. 1330
Capital transferred to Muscovy


Hannibal

 

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Originally posted by Demetrios


Greven, the Grand Prince of Vladimir was the most important title in northern Russia; whoever held it had power and prestige over his fellow princes. After 1389, the title and lands of the Grand Prince of Vladimir were always held by the Prince of Moscow. If you don't believe me, check whatever lists of rulers you have; you'll notice that Moscow and Vladimir were always held by the same person during this period. Suzdal was a separate state, true, but it was held by a close relative of the Prince of Moscow, and, indeed, was at times united with Moscow. By 1419, Moscow was supreme in northeastern Russia; states such as Suzdal, Nizhniy Novgorod, Uglich, Galich, Bryansk, Zvenigorod, and Beloozero were pretty much vassals of Moscow/Vladimir. Only Tver, Novgorod, Pskov, and (to a point) Ryazan were idependnet of Muscovite control by that point.

Oki-doki then... I was never that sure about that source of mine. It was abit vague in my taste, then Suzdal starts as a vassal to Muscowy.

/Greven

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by Daustin
I think Demetrios' idea of using a glyph for the Maya is good. There should be glyphs for most animals in that area. Don't know much about Zapotec glyphs since I've seen mostly pottery from tha area.

Unfortunately, the main Maya state of the time, Mayapan, doesn't have an emblem glyph as far as I know. Emblem glyphs are something associated with the Maya Classical era, and this was long gone by 1419. I guess we could co-opt one of the glyphs from the Classic city-states (I would nominate the knot of Tikal, as that city was the most powerful during the Classic), even though it wouldn't be quite historically accurate.

 

[Aetius]

This isn't much help but...
Great Zimbabwe seems to have become a part of Monomotapa around the beginning of this time period. There is colonial heraldry based on tribal traditions so if the tribe that founded Zimbabwe is known you could take the provincial colonial town's heraldry. Unfortunately you'll need ethnic map of Zimbabwe for this to work...

 

[Sir James]

The Karanga, a Shona tribe, founded the Mwanamutapa Empire at the beginning of the EU2 period. They were eclipsed by the Rozwi who founded the Changamire Empire and built the main Great Zimbabwe type structures. They lasted until the upheavals caused by the Zulu expansion.

A mini ‘dark age’ followed the rise of the Zulus through most of southern Africa, which coupled with colonial expansion means that very little remains in the way of records or directly linked traditions. European explorers were very surprised to find the remains of Great Zimbabwe and other equally impressive cities, and got little information from the local inhabitants.

The only symbol identified from that period is the ‘Bird of Zimbabwe’ featured on the national flag, and even that is from archaeological rather than historical records or traditional memories.

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Sir James
European explorers were very surprised to find the remains of Great Zimbabwe and other equally impressive cities, and got little information from the local inhabitants.

Then they proceeded to destroy the archelogical evidence in a pointless search for a lost white tribe. One of the finer hours of European science. I doubt that any evidence remains on symbols used for statecraft.
Great Zimbabwe seems to be founded by the Shona and then it was followed by the Rozwi (who seem to be a different tribe), who speak Shona. The name for the empire is a problem though since it seems to be known to the Europeans as Monomotapa, but it was replaced by the Changamire Empire founded by a member of Monomotapa's ruling familiy, the locals called it Rozwi. The name used for them in contemporary Zimbabwe seems to be Monomotapa.
In some internet sources Monomotapa or the Rozwi conquered Great Zimbabwe in the 1440's, in others they seem to have founded it.... In any case Monomotapa seems to have fought a few fights with the Portugese, losing out in an portugese expedition in the 1590's http://www.ipv.pt/millenium/arq5_2.htm
But driving them out in the 1690's:http://208.154.71.60/bcom/eb/article/5/0,5716,22785+1+22435,00.html
I think that Monomotapa is probably a better name for Great Zimbabwe in EU2 since it seems to have been the European historical name for Changamire Empire. Or at least the one used on maps of the area...

More to the point: the Shona dominate current Zimbabwe so using the current flag's bird as a national symbol should be fine:http://www.questconnect.org/images/flagZIM.jpg
or for the original:http://ficus.plusloin.org/shona/01.jpg

 

[Sir James]

Another Burmese peacock, this time both dated in-period and on a flag:

http://www.geocities.com/bcahoon.geo/Myanmar.htm

Is Taungu intended to be the main Burmese state, or is there going to be a competing Ava / Awa?

What about Songhai / Mali?

Another good site for kings:

http://www.almanach.be

Name of the ‘Great Zimbabwe’ state:

The series of Shona states interacting with Portugal in what is now Moçambique and Zim can, for EU2 purposes, I think be considered as one, albeit with changing dynasties or even names. Karanga (? The people), Monomotapa / Mwanamutapa (? The dynasty) certainly refer to the same nation and Changmire / Rozwi is more of a dynastic change rather than a new nation.

Monomotapa would seem to be the name used by the Portuguese, but it is rather Latinised compared to Mwanamutapa, Mwene Mutapa, or Munhu Mutapa, which are probably closer to the original phonetics. Karanga is easier to spell, but not very evocative (the Kalanga tribe still exists btw), while Great Zimbabwe is going to be much more accessible and easily recognised. I would go for Great Zim

 

[Demetrios]

By the way, Paradox folks, the French coat-of-arms changed in the 1390s from having a large number of fleur-de-lis (France Ancient) to only having three, two on top and one below (France Modern). It was incorrect to use the old arms with large number of fleur-de-lis in EU, so maybe you guys can correct this in EU2?

 

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Originally posted by Dogface
First, as others have already pointed out, the American nations had nothing we would consider a "flag" as such. Some might have symbols they would commonly use, like the hunch-backed flute player of the Pueblo, but no flags.

Second: The Cherokee syllabary was developed in the 1700s, in response to encountering European writing systems. While limited logographic symbols were somewhat used before this time, full-fledged writing didn't get far north of Mexico, as far as I know.

I would be extremely bummed out to see the Kokopilau (hunch-backed flute player) used on a battle standard as he was quite often associated with fertility. In his modern form, the rather HUGE penis that he is traditionally shown with has been... uh... omitted. If nothing else, this should be re-introduced if this symbol is used.

 

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Originally posted by amrush
Following in the footsteps of Daustin...

If no reasonable semblance of a symbol for the Apache can be found, I'd suggest using a buffalo on that nation's shield.

I do not think that a buffalo would be the most appropriate symbol for the Apache. The Southwest tribes were nowhere near as dependent upon the buffalo as the tribes in the rest of the country.

 

[Aetius]

Excuse me if this sounds a bit ignorant but didn't the Indians have totem animals that can be high jacked into flags?

 

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Originally posted by Aetius
Excuse me if this sounds a bit ignorant but didn't the Indians have totem animals that can be high jacked into flags?

The Native tribes did indeed have totem animals (although the 'totem pole' phenomena was restricted to the Pacific NW, I believe)... however, these totem animals were usually on a very individual basis (e.g. one guy might have a spirit animal of the buffalo, and another the spirit animal of the coyote) rather than on a tribal level. At least this was the case west of the Mississippi and north of the Rio Grande... (south of Inuit lands.
)

 

[Aetius]

I suppose names like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse could have answered my question on further reflection...

 

[Sir James]

This might be useful for the Ashanti:
http://www.main.nc.us/openstudio/jacquipeters/goldstool.htm

 

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Greven,

Can you please post the nations you need leaders/monarchs for?

Thanks.

 

[Hrv123]

Ey Greven youst one ? ok?

Did you perhaps woreked on some file named "CRO" or "Croatia" ???????

I hope yes
( its prably NO )

enewey would like if you could anser
thnx

 

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Arakan seems to be south-west of Siam...

http://home.planet.nl/~galen087/

... the link has some info but no flags.