Help me understand the full effect of blockades...

[unmerged(17791)]

Didn't see anything in the Vicky Wiki on this:

OK so hypothetically speaking, suppose I'm playing as the UK and I decide to intervene and assist France in the Franco-Prussian War (or WWI, I guess it doesn't matter). So, first thing I do is go in with my glorious, unbeatable Royal Navy, give the Kraut a [thick English accent] right proper thrashing[/accent], then I setup some blockades on all their ports.

1) Of course this affects their ability to receive imports from the colonies (if applicable), but to what extent - and how do I know how effective I'm being? I can see the % blockade effectiveness for my own provinces, but what about the enemy? I presume the # number of ships I use per port matters? How many does it take to be maximum effective?

2) Does it also prevent him from trading as per normal on the WM? Is there any way to directly trade over land (for example with pals like Austria, etc.)? How much does this really impact the enemy's economy?

Anyway, blockades are sort of mystery to me right now. Of course I have common sense, but still this is a game mechanic that I'm hoping to understand/exploit with full knowledge of how it functions exactly. Thanks for your support.

 

[Victor1234]

The naval blockades have never been working as they really should. I know for sure they can still trade on the WM, and since that's the case, if there is any loss from colonies not shipping their resources, they can just buy the materials off the WM. A better idea of economic warfare would be to ensure you're the main producer of canned food/small arms and/or have high prestige. You buy up all those stocks from the WM for the duration of the war, and with your high prestige, you'll get away with it. The enemy (and in fact, every other nation) won't be able to expand mob pool/raise new land forces, then at the end of the war (by which time the price is really, really high), you dump your huge stock and watch as the price crashes, earning you a healthy profit along the way.

 

[OHgamer]

Blockades are one of the least developed things in Victoria becasue as you note there are so many "what ifs" - mainly, the question about access trade with neutrals - that makes trying to develop a basic model difficult at best.

Lets take ENG at war with GER in 1900 with roughly historical boundaries of their empires.

blockade access to colonial goods by stationing your shipping off the coast of the enemy's colonail possessions. British navy cuts of exports from the German colonies to Germany.

OK so as GER I have been blocked from goods from my colonial possessions. But GER is only at war with ENG, no one else. Is GER access to the entire world market truly blocked? What about trade with neutral France and its usually large empire. Neutral Netherlands and its Indonesian empire. Germany in this case could very easily buy goods from the neutral French, Dutch, Italians whoever to make up what they can't get from their own colonies, and what exactly would the British have been able to do about it so long as those nations remained neutral.

Even if ENG blockaded all of GER the GER ports, GER has a huge land frontier with neighbors, and if they are all neutral, why should there be any limiting the amount of trade GER could do with other nations who put their goods on the WM to sell to the combattants. Even if you were to tell the engine to remove ENG production from GER's pool of access to world market goods (creating yet another huge set of data for the game engine to keep track of each day - what countries can and can not have access to the production of other nations), unless ENG had a monopoly of certain goods it would be difficult to starve GER of access to overseas goods in a strictly ENG-GER war situation.

Now, combine all this with whatever calculations that would have to be done every day for every good from every producer and factoring in who is and who is not at war with each other, and the result soon becomes a data mountain for the game engine to potentially have to compute, on top of all the other data needed to be computed each day in terms of province production, POP incomes, POP needs, battle statistics, diplomatic actions, etc. and the result is most likely a game engine at the original minimum requirements for Victoria (128 MB RAM) rapidly shutting down and hiding in a corner from being overworked.

If there ever is a Victoria 2, a much improved system of trade access and blockade in wartime, provided international trade resembels anything like what it does in current Victoria, would likely be possible given the much greater power of computers in the four years since the development of the original game. But as for right now, given the current economic system used in Victoria, the questions of how to depict access to the trade of neutrals, and the question of staying within base game specifications for a game deisgned with the average computer of 2002 in mind, I'm not sure there is much room for further elaboration on this issue with this current game engine.

 

[Enzo]

what would be great to see in a new game engine, would be a mix of bipartite trade as they exist in hoi2 and world market in Victoria, associated with transport unit to effectively deliver goods. I assume world market would have the main share during peace period and then rolling back to bipartite trade while in global war.

 

[Nabatam]

What about supply lines for armies? I was fighting a Colonial War with Germany as USA, had blocked the only port of one of his colonies, assuming that would keep them from resupplying and adding soldiers, but it didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

What about supply lines for armies? I was fighting a Colonial War with Germany as USA, had blocked the only port of one of his colonies, assuming that would keep them from resupplying and adding soldiers, but it didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever

There are no supply lines for army unfortunately. Army uses money to upkeep it, nothing more.

 

[OHgamer]

There are no supply lines for army unfortunately. Army uses money to upkeep it, nothing more.

And thank heavens - there is already enough to keep an eye on during a war I'd hate to have to also be watching another set of spinning plates to ensure my troops at the front lines have enough bullets during the course of the battle.

If Victoria was an actual war game, like HoI2, then having detailed supply lines would make sense. But Victoria is not a war game, so eliding all the fussy details into ensuring you have the wealth being produced at the home front to support the war effort makes sense for the kind of game Victoria is. Adding even more military detail in terms of fretting about number of guns and bullets reaching troops at the front would be a terrible new addition of micromanagement to the game.

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

And thank heavens - there is already enough to keep an eye on during a war I'd hate to have to also be watching another set of spinning plates to ensure my troops at the front lines have enough bullets during the course of the battle.

If Victoria was an actual war game, like HoI2, then having detailed supply lines would make sense.

Sure, war is not as necessary part as it is in HoI2, naturally, so lack of supply is forgivable. Though I must say I do miss the supply lines when, for example, Ottoman cavalry units race towards St. Petersburg while Russian units recapture provinces at their route.

But Victoria is not a war game, so eliding all the fussy details into ensuring you have the wealth being produced at the home front to support the war effort makes sense for the kind of game Victoria is. Adding even more military detail in terms of fretting about number of guns and bullets reaching troops at the front would be a terrible new addition of micromanagement to the game.

Of course it would add micromanagement somewhat. Though already factories need certain input every day and player is forced to make sure these materials reach the factories in large enough quantities. If there would be military supply (for field units) costs in addition of the already excisting monetary costs, things like Crimean war and Russian collapse in it would be somewhat easier to get. Then the industrialisation would set apart countries as much as technology since only truly great powers could supply vast armies, both economically (as it is now) and production-wise. Combining HoI2 and Vicky would be absolutely great game. But naturally this is only my opinion and I do realise it would be too tedious for most players so it could never get big sales.

 

[Graf Zeppelin]

There are no supply lines for army unfortunately. Army uses money to upkeep it, nothing more.

Sadly,in Wartime it should be important how much ammo,guns and food you can produce and not how much luxury furniture you can sell.

 

[unmerged(49082)]

Threads like this make me wonder when will Paradox implement a pay-for-patch system for Vicky. There are several 'spinning plates' I'd love to be added/fully implemented. With the small but lifelong fanbase this is the only way to develop a game.

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

Threads like this make me wonder when will Paradox implement a pay-for-patch system for Vicky. There are several 'spinning plates' I'd love to be added/fully implemented. With the small but lifelong fanbase this is the only way to develop a game.

Well if Paradox would do another major overhaul for Vicky there would be nothing to stop me from buying it no matter the cost. Heck, I bought Revolutions twice to get it on CD...

Hopefully there are enough Vicky fans in the Paradox staff and they have enough interest to meddle with the old lady. Somebody like OHgamer as a Paradox employer would do wonders, I think.

 

[OHgamer]

Sadly,in Wartime it should be important how much ammo,guns and food you can produce and not how much luxury furniture you can sell.

No, in wartime the important thing is that your nation produces enough wealth (or is willing to put itself into enough debt) to keep armies supplied with all the goods and paraphenalia needed to keep the forces in the field.

Which is exactly what supply consumption represents in Victoria. It represents all the ammo, food, clothing and other materiel needed to keep forces in the field. That could be produced at home, or procured from overseas. So long as you have the wealth generation, you can keep your forces in the field.

Again, the focus in Victoria is creating the economic basis for being able to carry out whatever foreign policy goals you have in mind. Why adding additional micromanagement elements to ensure each division gets its 1 unit of ammo, one unit of clothing and 2 units of food/day to keep fighting would make for a better game when the general consensus is that the game has too much micromanagement already I don't understand. Why paying attention about exact quantities of ammo getting to the front during a war would be a better game feature than ensuring your industrial plant has the specific resources needed to maintain full production I can't see.

The fact that Victoria focuses on the root economic bases of what makes societies powerful rather than the surface ephemera of generals and politicians is what makes Victoria, IMHO, a much better game overall, and it makes more sense to me to focus the micromanagement on those areas that are at the heart of the game, a sound economy and stable home front, not the flashy ephemera of generals leading troops on the front. Because in the end, no military will be successful if the home front does not produce the wealth needed to keep the troops at full efficiency, and that wealth will not be produced at its most efficient if the home front population is less than enamoured with their current conditions of life.

 

[Enzo]

Combining HoI2 and Vicky would be absolutely great game. But naturally this is only my opinion and I do realise it would be too tedious for most players so it could never get big sales.

I'm with you on this one, it's a suggestion I've made in the wish list thread for vic2. I'll call this a monster game : the state of the art of hoi2:dd and revolution. The way you can turn your economy from a consumers good oriented production to a war production in Victoria apply to the ww2 period would be simply great associated with a combat engine like the one in dd ... all of this based on eu3 engine. OK, I stop dreaming

 

[Director]

Britain's blockade of Germany in WWI would have been ineffective save for one point. Germany counted on being able to trade through neutrals - one reason the Netherlands were not invaded. But Britain adopted the 'continuous voyage' doctrine that allowed neutral vessels to be stopped, searched and taken if their cargo was intended for an enemy. In practice this could mean a cargo of (say) saltpeter loaded in Chile on an American ship for delivery to Amsterdam could be stopped, searched and taken to a prize court if it coud be shown the saltpeter was going to be shipped on from Amsterdam to a purchaser in Germany or Austria.

If I remember correctly this doctrine was later expanded to prevent the shipment of certain critical materials to the continent. Anyone know about this?

This effectively ended all overseas trade by the Central Powers. The only way I can see to implement this in Vicky would be to have access to the world market shut off if you can't trace an overland or over-water connection to... well, to someplace else.

I agree that the existing system makes blockades all but useless (except perhaps against Britain or Japan). But I don't see an easy way to improve it in any meaningful way.

That said, does anyone know how many ships are required to make an effective blockade?

 

[Gen. Skobelev]

No, in wartime the important thing is that your nation produces enough wealth (or is willing to put itself into enough debt) to keep armies supplied with all the goods and paraphenalia needed to keep the forces in the field.

Which is exactly what supply consumption represents in Victoria. It represents all the ammo, food, clothing and other materiel needed to keep forces in the field. That could be produced at home, or procured from overseas. So long as you have the wealth generation, you can keep your forces in the field.

Again, the focus in Victoria is creating the economic basis for being able to carry out whatever foreign policy goals you have in mind. Why adding additional micromanagement elements to ensure each division gets its 1 unit of ammo, one unit of clothing and 2 units of food/day to keep fighting would make for a better game when the general consensus is that the game has too much micromanagement already I don't understand.

Actually I don't no longer see where this belief comes from that Vicky is too much micromanagement. With Revolutions there are no longer clickfests to upgrade railroads or constantly build factories. I've found that I am forced to do much more micromanagement in HoI2 than in Vicky these days. As for why to put more detail into the game - well I'd for one like to see even more detail. Victoria has very good economic and social base for the game and I'd like to see also the military aspect tied to it. Vicky period was not only raising hordes of units, it was more about supplying and moving them

Why paying attention about exact quantities of ammo getting to the front during a war would be a better game feature than ensuring your industrial plant has the specific resources needed to maintain full production I can't see.

I didn't say which one would be better. I only meant that it would not be too difficult to make military have some sort of raw materials/goods consumption. Once such thing is established, I don't think it would be any more difficult for players to keep track of than the raw material usage of some factory. Nothing says the material usage has to be limited for factories only.

The fact that Victoria focuses on the root economic bases of what makes societies powerful rather than the surface ephemera of generals and politicians is what makes Victoria, IMHO, a much better game overall

True, true. I don't envision Vicky2 (or whatever name my fantasy game should go by) losing any of its socio-economic aspects, I'd only add military aspect to it. Even though HoI2 is not as elegant as Vicky, there are number of things that could be adapted from it to Vicky.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

OK so as GER I have been blocked from goods from my colonial possessions. But GER is only at war with ENG, no one else. Is GER access to the entire world market truly blocked? What about trade with neutral France and its usually large empire. Neutral Netherlands and its Indonesian empire. Germany in this case could very easily buy goods from the neutral French, Dutch, Italians whoever to make up what they can't get from their own colonies, and what exactly would the British have been able to do about it so long as those nations remained neutral.

Even if ENG blockaded all of GER the GER ports, GER has a huge land frontier with neighbors, and if they are all neutral, why should there be any limiting the amount of trade GER could do with other nations who put their goods on the WM to sell to the combattants. Even if you were to tell the engine to remove ENG production from GER's pool of access to world market goods (creating yet another huge set of data for the game engine to keep track of each day - what countries can and can not have access to the production of other nations), unless ENG had a monopoly of certain goods it would be difficult to starve GER of access to overseas goods in a strictly ENG-GER war situation.

Historically tho, the British blockade of the German coast did serve to help cripple the German home front as well as the army which would therefore imply that either goods from neutral land connected powers were either not coming in or not coming in at the desired levels.

Addtionally, the game fails to cater for another real life variable- namely that both the UK and Germany would stop neutral shipping wherever possible...

Neutral goods imports on land could be tied to relations perhaps...

But your point about additional variables for the AI to keep track of is well considered...but then I guess that is for paradox to worry about!

 

[unmerged(57903)]

I didn't say which one would be better. I only meant that it would not be too difficult to make military have some sort of raw materials/goods consumption. Once such thing is established, I don't think it would be any more difficult for players to keep track of than the raw material usage of some factory. Nothing says the material usage has to be limited for factories only.

A nice little note at the top informing you "a military unit is out of supply" would do the trick. Especially if the sign had a number on - you might know two armies were out of supply, but seeing the number rise would draw your attention to further developments.

 

[unmerged(17791)]

To clarify, which is the more effective tactic in the following 2 scenarios:

Scenario
1) UK is blockading Germany (suppose Germany has a few colonies out there), is it better to blockade German ports themselves (i.e. their ports on the European continent), or the colonial ports? I've seen the AI (in VIP) do the former. For example in the Crimean War Russia was blockading French ports, on France proper.

Scenario
2) Suppose in a WWI situation you're playing as Germany, and have managed to dispense of the Royal Navy. Since in fact the UK is an island nation, should you blockade the British Isles, or go out and spread yourself thin, trying to blockade every single little colonial port, on their gigantic empire?

By the way, do submarines effectively execute the blockade function in the game?

 

[unmerged(17791)]

[...]

Again, the focus in Victoria is creating the economic basis for being able to carry out whatever foreign policy goals you have in mind. [...]

Which is precisely why this -apparently underdeveloped- aspect of the game needs to be fixed, since IRL blockades were massively significant impacts on a nations' war time economies.

Heck, no one would argue that in WWI the U-boats brought Britain to it's knees.

It wouldn't be too hard... think about how HoI uses convoys, and how you can just leave some subs or commerce raiders strategically placed out in the sea lanes, and then you get that nearly constant torpedo sound effect... music to the ears. But yeah, Vicky has a convoy system, it's just incredibly primitive compared to HoI / HoI2.

But if it could be brought up to date, it would be perfect. Also I have no complaints about over-micromanagement. Managing the convoys & escorts a la Hearts of Iron would be no big deal, really. Even playing as the UK. But for someone that doesn't want that, use "auto maintain shipping needs". But still, that type of -HoI- convoy system is exactly what Vicky needs.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Heck, no one would argue that in WWI the U-boats brought Britain to it's knees.

Not true Im afraid. The Admiralty did inform the government (I cant remember the date off hand) that the UK was at certain points a mere 6 months away from surrender.