Help me flesh out my East Asia alt history (late Tang- Five Dynasties Ten Kingdoms)

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icedt729

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So I'm working on this mostly with an eye towards making a Crusader Kings 2 mod, then possibly pushing that forward into an EU4 one. The gist is that it picks up in the mid-11th century (I might even make it 1066 just for irony's sake) after diverging from our own history in the early 10th. In China, the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period has dragged on longer than usual and constant warfare has brought back some feudal institutions. In Korea the Silla-Goryeo rivalry is ongoing, and Japan is on the eve of the Gempei War. I also intend the mod to cover Tibet, the Tarim Basin, northern Vietnam and a decent chunk of the steppe, so I need to flesh out events for those areas as well.

Right now I'm looking for any helpful historical information or original ideas regarding important people or clans, military equipment and strategy, politics, models of government, important cities or fortifications, etc. I'm also hoping to bounce some ideas regarding mechanics off of you guys, if anyone's interested. Thoughts?
 

toroltao

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I have to admit, none of my books have anything on the FDTK era. Usually they just go from Tang and skip right to the beginning of Song.
 

icedt729

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Which is exactly why I'm having a bit of a tough time. There's not that many sources outside of Wikipedia articles, which is part of why I decided to make a slightly-divergent alt timeline instead of trying to faithfully recreate something that's hard to get good details on.

At any rate, Chinese history is actually my strong suit within this region, and it's easier for me to fill in the gaps there than elsewhere. I'm really interested in ideas on how to work out Japan and Korea, since their early history is so contentious.
 

DarthJF

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In Japan the period around 1066 marked the high point of Fujiwara rule during Heian period, after which their control over the court started to erode. Emperor Go-Sanjō was about to rise to the throne, becoming the first Emperor in almost 200 years who was not related to the Fujiwara clan. His son started the practice of cloistered rule where the Emperor would retire to a monastery while leaving the throne to an infant, but acting as the real power behind the throne.

This created several rival power centers in the court, which resulted in power struggles between current and retired Emperors, like the Hōgen Rebellion and the rise of military families like Taira and Minamoto, who had their power bases out in the provinces while high nobility was occupied by palace intrigues in the capital.
 

Fornadan

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So I'm working on this mostly with an eye towards making a Crusader Kings 2 mod, then possibly pushing that forward into an EU4 one. The gist is that it picks up in the mid-11th century (I might even make it 1066 just for irony's sake) after diverging from our own history in the early 10th. In China, the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period has dragged on longer than usual and constant warfare has brought back some feudal institutions. In Korea the Silla-Goryeo rivalry is ongoing, and Japan is on the eve of the Gempei War. I also intend the mod to cover Tibet, the Tarim Basin, northern Vietnam and a decent chunk of the steppe, so I need to flesh out events for those areas as well.

Right now I'm looking for any helpful historical information or original ideas regarding important people or clans, military equipment and strategy, politics, models of government, important cities or fortifications, etc. I'm also hoping to bounce some ideas regarding mechanics off of you guys, if anyone's interested. Thoughts?

Have you decided why and when the the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period drags on longer than historical? Broadly speaking there was a continuous march towards centralization through the period (with some setbacks), you'll need something to halt or reverse that


In some ways the late Tang was more feudal, with many governorships in the north being de facto hereditary
 

icedt729

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Have you decided why and when the the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period drags on longer than historical? Broadly speaking there was a continuous march towards centralization through the period (with some setbacks), you'll need something to halt or reverse that


In some ways the late Tang was more feudal, with many governorships in the north being de facto hereditary
I'm not that far along honestly. I chose this time period because I wanted a medieval East Asian setting in which there are many competitive states and interesting things are happening throughout the region, and I chose to push it into alt-history territory to reserve a little creative freedom for myself.

As far as the jiedushi go, I'm imagining something along the lines of the sengoku daimyo- increasingly centralized, yes, but highly militarized and difficult to reunify. It seems to me the two main stages in the collapse of the Ten Kingdoms was the expansion of Southern Tang, which offset the power balance in the south, followed by the stabilization of the north and return to Han rule under the Northern Song. Once Bei Song defeated Nan Tang it was a matter of time until reunification- so the main things that need to happen are for nomadic groups to continue jockeying for power in the north while Wu/Nan Tang fails to achieve dominance in the south.

One of the things I'm trying to work out in terms of mechanics is how to create a balance between the military and the bureaucracy within Chinese states, and probably within Korea and Japan as well. It's still in the brainstorming stages but I think it's important for getting the constant coups, usurpations and internal collapses of the period right.

DarthJF said:
In Japan the period around 1066 marked the high point of Fujiwara rule during Heian period, after which their control over the court started to erode. Emperor Go-Sanjō was about to rise to the throne, becoming the first Emperor in almost 200 years who was not related to the Fujiwara clan. His son started the practice of cloistered rule where the Emperor would retire to a monastery while leaving the throne to an infant, but acting as the real power behind the throne.

This created several rival power centers in the court, which resulted in power struggles between current and retired Emperors, like the Hōgen Rebellion and the rise of military families like Taira and Minamoto, who had their power bases out in the provinces while high nobility was occupied by palace intrigues in the capital.
This is good info- how exactly would you like to see this play out in gameplay terms? I've considered using sayyid-style inheritable traits for Taira, Minamoto and Fujiwara descendants to facilitate the historic rivalry between them and the importance their ancestry would have for later nobles, but I really don't know how to represent cloistered rule. That being said marking the shift from empire to shogunate (and giving players the chance to prevent it) is one of the things I'm most interested in doing in this mod.
 

profxyz

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Well, by far the most important dynamic you have to include with regards to China during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms ('5-10') is the process of adoption. In Northern China at least, where military rule & military values were more entrenched, there arose a notion that family ties were cemented through 'sharing hardship' rather than through mere blood links (and of course it was a useful way to bind important commanders to a ruling house). Dynastic armies therefore usually centered around an elite corps led by said adopted sons ('Yi'er Jun'), and it wasn't uncommon to see royal houses pass from one family to another - the Later Zhou is the best example, with founder Guo Wei being succeeded by his adopted son, Chai Rong. Similarly with Li Siyuan succeeding Li Cunxu in Later Tang.

It would also be a mistake to conflate the role of the bureaucracy in the 5-10 with the role the bureaucracy played in the Song Dynasty. Unlike in the Song Dynasty, bureaucrats during the period were supposed to be, first and foremost, subservient to the ruling Emperor. Whoever possessed the Mandate of Heaven were their masters - and, critically, they themselves were not in a position to decide who was to have said Mandate. This is why Feng Dao, a relatively famous official during the period, was praised by contemporary histories for doing good service to four dynasties, while being castigated by Song histories for the same thing. Also, during the period examinations, which had been hijacked by the aristocracy during the Late Tang, became redundant as a means of getting official posts, which were usually issued by decree. Talented men unable to pass examinations/gain posts would simply move to another warlord who would value their talents - which, ironically, laid the groundwork for the 'talent over blood' mentality that was to form the basis for the Song examination system.

Geographically, research on epitaphs shows that starting from the Late Tang, military men had already dominated Northern China, so by 1000 CE this would mean that they have had over 2 centuries of dominance. Military domination of Southern China abruptly started at the start of the 5-10, which is about a century of dominance by 1000 CE. The Lower Yangtze, the Grand Canal, Luoyang and Chang'an were most 'civilianized', with numerous epitaphs for non-military men and even non-officials (rich merchants and suchlike). However, as time went on officeholders became more wealthy than non-officeholders, so in your scenario we would probably see an environment where the trading families at the lower Yangtze (e.g. Yangzhou) are in terminal decline, their wealth sucked away by the monopolization/distribution of economic resources by military warlords.

Migration was a great issue during the 5-10. 40% of all officials in the Wu Kingdom (Yangzhou) had come from North China; 36% of Later Tang officials in Hebei came from Huaibei/Henan. Direction of migration was primarily away from Henan-Huaibei (Luoyang/Kaifeng/Xuzhou) and into either Jiangnan (Yangzhou), Hebei (the military areas of Fanyang/Youzhou etc.) or Sichuan (Chengdu). There was also significant emigration of Chinese elites from Hebei into Khitan Liao as well. Of course, there were also the Shatuo Turks/Khitans coming down into China, not just as invaders but also as mercenaries. Hell, Lun Boyan, a Tibetan, was an important commander in the Hebei region during the time. Migration during this period was very chaotic, with 'deserters' usually having their lands confiscated and granted to loyal officials. Integration into their new society was generally pretty swift, however. The late 5-10 saw the rise of indigenous officialdom in the Southern Tang, though Northern China continued to be ruled primarily by 'foreigners'.

Related to this is the feature of the 'migrant army' in 5-10 (I think the closest analogue one can make here is Liu Bei's wandering force during the Three Kingdoms period). 'Migrant Armies' were arguably the mechanisms through which 5-10 migration occurred. Armies defecting or fleeing would generally bring along their retinue (both civil officials as well as military men), and various warlords would make great attempts to try and recruit them into their camp. For the most part, most of these armies originated from the Hebei/Hedong region, and this region would be disproportionately represented in almost all 5-10 regimes up until the Song, who still had 46% of civil officials and 72% of military officials from these two regions.

As for centralization, it is true that as time went on warlords became increasingly effective at coalescing power in the capital, bolstered by the yi'er jun and also encouraging military men, local elites and civil officials to stay in the provincial capital. However, elite migration had also diluted central power away from the capitals and into more provincial regimes/towns, not to mention the continuing existence of powerful warlords in the North China Plain, which only the relatively unique personage of Song Taizu could effectively and peacefully disarm. The bureaucracy was also only just beginning to develop the notion of itself as an organization independent of the Emperor, which meant that they didn't provide much of a counter-balance. As such, the grounds for continued feudalism were there.

As for important towns... I have a book about Chinese administrative divisions at home, so I might be able to make a map based on that once I finish work.
 
Last edited:

icedt729

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This post was glorious. I have a feeling I'll be asking you about this pretty often.

Well, by far the most important dynamic you have to include with regards to China during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms ('5-10') is the process of adoption. In Northern China at least, where military rule & military values were more entrenched, there arose a notion that family ties were cemented through 'sharing hardship' rather than through mere blood links (and of course it was a useful way to bind important commanders to a ruling house). Dynastic armies therefore usually centered around an elite corps led by said adopted sons ('Yi'er Jun'), and it wasn't uncommon to see royal houses pass from one family to another - the Later Zhou is the best example, with founder Guo Wei being succeeded by his adopted son, Chai Rong. Similarly with Li Siyuan succeeding Li Cunxu in Later Tang.
Great info- I'll just need to figure out how to have characters swap dynasties. Shouldn't be too hard, I already know it happens with bastard-related events.

It would also be a mistake to conflate the role of the bureaucracy in the 5-10 with the role the bureaucracy played in the Song Dynasty. Unlike in the Song Dynasty, bureaucrats during the period were supposed to be, first and foremost, subservient to the ruling Emperor. Whoever possessed the Mandate of Heaven were their masters - and, critically, they themselves were not in a position to decide who was to have said Mandate. This is why Feng Dao, a relatively famous official during the period, was praised by contemporary histories for doing good service to four dynasties, while being castigated by Song histories for the same thing. Also, during the period examinations, which had been hijacked by the aristocracy during the Late Tang, became redundant as a means of getting official posts, which were usually issued by decree. Talented men unable to pass examinations/gain posts would simply move to another warlord who would value their talents - which, ironically, laid the groundwork for the 'talent over blood' mentality that was to form the basis for the Song examination system.
Noted; I was thinking that the essential difference between the aristocracy and bureaucracy would be that the aristocracy was hereditary while the bureaucracy was appointed and therefore easier to manage. Do you think this is in keeping with the times?

Geographically, research on epitaphs shows that starting from the Late Tang, military men had already dominated Northern China, so by 1000 CE this would mean that they have had over 2 centuries of dominance. Military domination of Southern China abruptly started at the start of the 5-10, which is about a century of dominance by 1000 CE. The Lower Yangtze, the Grand Canal, Luoyang and Chang'an were most 'civilianized', with numerous epitaphs for non-military men and even non-officials (rich merchants and suchlike). However, as time went on officeholders became more wealthy than non-officeholders, so in your scenario we would probably see an environment where the trading families at the lower Yangtze (e.g. Yangzhou) are in terminal decline, their wealth sucked away by the monopolization/distribution of economic resources by military warlords.
So when you say northern China excluding Luoyang and Chang'an, we're mostly talking about what is now Hebei, Henan, Shandong, etcetera? Keeping the traditional capitols and a few major ports as bastions of civil government while filling in the conflict zones and interior with military families is an appealing set-up from where I sit.

Migration was a great issue during the 5-10. 40% of all officials in the Wu Kingdom (Yangzhou) had come from North China; 36% of Later Tang officials in Hebei came from Huaibei/Henan. Direction of migration was primarily away from Henan-Huaibei (Luoyang/Kaifeng/Xuzhou) and into either Jiangnan (Yangzhou), Hebei (the military areas of Fanyang/Youzhou etc.) or Sichuan (Chengdu). There was also significant emigration of Chinese elites from Hebei into Khitan Liao as well. Of course, there were also the Shatuo Turks/Khitans coming down into China, not just as invaders but also as mercenaries. Hell, Lun Boyan, a Tibetan, was an important commander in the Hebei region during the time. Migration during this period was very chaotic, with 'deserters' usually having their lands confiscated and granted to loyal officials. Integration into their new society was generally pretty swift, however. The late 5-10 saw the rise of indigenous officialdom in the Southern Tang, though Northern China continued to be ruled primarily by 'foreigners'.
This is interesting but I can see it being very difficult to model in-game, other than through relatively clunky and arbitrary events for courtiers and troops popping up here and there. I can imagine something where rulers have opportunities to enlist dissatisfied or recently-unlanded nobles from rival states.

Related to this is the feature of the 'migrant army' in 5-10 (I think the closest analogue one can make here is Liu Bei's wandering force during the Three Kingdoms period). 'Migrant Armies' were arguably the mechanisms through which 5-10 migration occurred. Armies defecting or fleeing would generally bring along their retinue (both civil officials as well as military men), and various warlords would make great attempts to try and recruit them into their camp. For the most part, most of these armies originated from the Hebei/Hedong region, and this region would be disproportionately represented in almost all 5-10 regimes up until the Song, who still had 46% of civil officials and 72% of military officials from these two regions.
Hedong would be, what, modern Shandong? What are some good examples for the scale of these migrations?

As for centralization, it is true that as time went on warlords became increasingly effective at coalescing power in the capital, bolstered by the yi'er jun and also encouraging military men, local elites and civil officials to stay in the provincial capital. However, elite migration had also diluted central power away from the capitals and into more provincial regimes/towns, not to mention the continuing existence of powerful warlords in the North China Plain, which only the relatively unique personage of Song Taizu could effectively and peacefully disarm. The bureaucracy was also only just beginning to develop the notion of itself as an organization independent of the Emperor, which meant that they didn't provide much of a counter-balance. As such, the grounds for continued feudalism were there.
I'm glad to hear my premise is at least somewhat feasible. What was it about Taizu that helped him dismantle the warlords?

As for important towns... I have a book about Chinese administrative divisions at home, so I might be able to make a map based on that once I finish work.
Excellent. I recently managed to find a good map of late Tang cities, districts and fanzhen, so I can use the two for comparison.
 

profxyz

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Noted; I was thinking that the essential difference between the aristocracy and bureaucracy would be that the aristocracy was hereditary while the bureaucracy was appointed and therefore easier to manage. Do you think this is in keeping with the times?

I guess for gameplay purposes you can see it that way. In reality its more complicated since Emperors technically can appoint and rotate fanzhen commanders (and some of them certainly did - the CKII system can approximate this to some extent already), and similarly it was custom to reward the descendants of particularly loyal/helpful bureaucrats with sinecures of similar rank, if only to placate factions/clans that they belonged to. Bureaucrats during the period also frequently... ahem, 'exercised' their power for personal gain and frequently became important local leaders in their own right. (Not helped by the tradition that officials were not taxed in their 'home' jurisdiction, which meant easy accumulation of wealth for even the most basic of official posts).

So when you say northern China excluding Luoyang and Chang'an, we're mostly talking about what is now Hebei, Henan, Shandong, etcetera? Keeping the traditional capitols and a few major ports as bastions of civil government while filling in the conflict zones and interior with military families is an appealing set-up from where I sit.

Pretty much, though the focus is on what is now Eastern Henan, Hebei, Shanxi and Northern Jiangsu. The whole period is one in which the center of China (figuratively speaking) moved 'eastwards', away from the Guanzhong region that houses Luoyang and Chang'an. The Grand Canal certainly helped in this and Bianjing/Kaifeng, which is located around the terminus of the medieval canal, gained prominence because of it.

This is interesting but I can see it being very difficult to model in-game, other than through relatively clunky and arbitrary events for courtiers and troops popping up here and there. I can imagine something where rulers have opportunities to enlist dissatisfied or recently-unlanded nobles from rival states.

To be honest, I would argue that the mass migrations were the defining feature of the 5-10 period, as far as China is concerned. Maybe you can use the mercenary system for this? Or perhaps the Varangian Guard events? There must be something analogous to this in the 'Old Gods' DLC with the 'Viking Invasion' mechanic. Sorry I don't play much CKII :(.

Hedong would be, what, modern Shandong? What are some good examples for the scale of these migrations?

Hedong is actually Shaanxi, because it's 'east' of the Yellow River Loop. As an example, when the Shatuo Turk Li Chengsi defected to the Prince of Wu, Yang Xingmi, in the early 10th Century, he carried with him thousands of cavalrymen, which if you assume a follower:soldier ratio of 1:1 (Engels assumes 1:3 for Alexander the Great) would mean a roving army of ten thousand at least. Then added to that was a sizeable part of the citizens of Yanzhou, who had travelled along with Li's defection. So migrations like that could be in the several tens of thousands. Yang Xingmi himself gave Li Chengsi the commandery of Chuzhou in order to retain his services with the soon-to-be Kingdom of Wu.

I'm glad to hear my premise is at least somewhat feasible. What was it about Taizu that helped him dismantle the warlords?

Well unlike the other warlords Taizu managed to 'capture' the central government largely intact - the Coup at Chen Bridge and peaceful surrender of the Later Zhou meant that Taizu a) was able to muster more resources against his would-be foes and b) with an intact central government, he didn't need to give concessions to provincial warlords. Also, by this time there was a far amount of 'warlord-proofing' going on, and the Song was quite lucky at having succeeded a string of rather competent Later Zhou Emperors. Of course Taizu himself was also a pretty good intriguer (as evidenced by the numerous 'bloodless' successes he pulled off) so there was that as well.
 
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icedt729

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I guess for gameplay purposes you can see it that way. In reality its more complicated since Emperors technically can appoint and rotate fanzhen commanders (and some of them certainly did - the CKII system can approximate this to some extent already), and similarly it was custom to reward the descendants of particularly loyal/helpful bureaucrats with sinecures of similar rank, if only to placate factions/clans that they belonged to.
The main challenge for me here is getting a good feel for exactly how 'fixed' these titles were and how subjects would react to them being shuffled around. In CK2 terms the liege almost always has the power to revoke titles but it's a question of whether other vassals will see it as tyrannical or not. I'm also having to work out the phenomenon of certain positions remaining relatively open while others come under the firm grip of a given family or faction (the problem with crown laws is that they apply uniformly to all your subjects and even a whole de jure area).

Pretty much, though the focus is on what is now Eastern Henan, Hebei, Shanxi and Northern Jiangsu. The whole period is one in which the center of China (figuratively speaking) moved 'eastwards', away from the Guanzhong region that houses Luoyang and Chang'an. The Grand Canal certainly helped in this and Bianjing/Kaifeng, which is located around the terminus of the medieval canal, gained prominence because of it.
That's good to know- up until now I didn't really know when the tipping point was in shifting from the Yellow River towards the coast. I guess the simplest way to model this would be to give the east more open holding slots, but I'd like to come up with something more ambitious in time.

To be honest, I would argue that the mass migrations were the defining trait of the 5-10 period, as far as China is concerned. Maybe you can use the mercenary system for this? Or perhaps the Varangian Guard events? There must be something analogous to this in the 'Old Gods' DLC with the 'Viking Invasion' mechanic. Sorry I don't play much CKII :(.
Old Gods has a few features that resemble this- 'adventurers,' landless characters roving around with armies and courtiers, seem promising- but they aren't just wandering, they're trying to seize a title somewhere. They don't pop up unless they're actively in a war with somebody, generally pressing a claim. So I might be able to use this in some kind of roundabout way, where they usually end up hired on with another ruler and their war ends inconclusively, allowing things to continue normally. But I'd have to screw around a lot to figure out how to make it happen.

Regarding mercenaries- you have two varieties. The normal kind that exist anywhere and nowhere and can be hired by anyone for a short period of time, and ones like the Varangian Guard that are vassalized and can only be hired by their liege and always mobilize from the capitol. Both definitely have interesting applications here, and I think the best solution for this issue might be to have 'wandering' nobles become mercenary captains and operate like typical landless mercenaries, but give them nudges towards gaining landed titles and swearing fealty. This way they can exist and influence events without being railroaded into invading a specific person, like they would if they were adventurers.

The only other option that comes to mind would be something like the Magyar/Hungarian settlement event, which is not exactly what we're looking for here but it might have some useful elements. The short version is- if the Hungarians conquer Hungary, they get a decision to create a new title, 'settle' the new provinces by instantly converting culture and religion, and get stacks of event troops that scale to the size of their territory. It also breaks up their former territories outside Hungary and fills them with new random counts. The main application I can see for that is flipping cultures if there's some major population displacement, but you can at least see what's possible.

Hedong is actually Shaanxi, because it's 'east' of the Yellow River Loop.
Ah, that makes sense.

As an example, when the Shatuo Turk Li Chengsi defected to the Prince of Wu, Yang Xingmi, in the early 10th Century, he carried with him thousands of cavalrymen, which if you assume a follower:soldier ratio of 1:1 (Engels assumes 1:3 for Alexander the Great) would mean a roving army of ten thousand at least. Then added to that was a sizeable part of the citizens of Yanzhou, who had travelled along with Li's defection. So migrations like that could be in the several tens of thousands. Yang Xingmi himself gave Li Chengsi the commandery of Chuzhou in order to retain his services with the soon-to-be Kingdom of Wu.
I guess the best way to handle this would be to make people like Li Chengsi into the heads of mercenary companies and give them events for joining jiedushi courts. That's really the only way to make them militarily significant while landless.

Well unlike the other warlords Taizu managed to 'capture' the central government largely intact - the Coup at Chen Bridge and peaceful surrender of the Later Zhou meant that Taizu a) was able to muster more resources against his would-be foes and b) with an intact central government, he didn't need to give concessions to provincial warlords. Also, by this time there was a far amount of 'warlord-proofing' going on, and the Song was quite lucky at having succeeded a string of rather competent Later Zhou Emperors. Of course Taizu himself was also a pretty good intriguer (as evidenced by the numerous 'bloodless' successes he pulled off) so there was that as well.
What kind of 'warlord-proofing,' exactly? It would be good to know what they historically did to rein them in.
 
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