Help, I'm terminally scared to attack the Soviet Union

[mcganyol]

After Finland joins the axis, i nearly always annex and liberate Sweden as a puppet, to get their metal for free, and to prevent them trading with my enemies. And this way swedish troops can be used as an extra reserve to help out the Finns or to help defend the annexed Norway beaches versus allies.

Germany worst nightmare when Usa is able to seize Oslo's airport, and begin his bombing campaign vs core provinces which are normally out of reach from uk (of course ai controlled usa never accomplish such a thing).

 

[Commander666]

After Finland joins the axis, i nearly always annex and liberate Sweden as a puppet. Germany worst nightmare when Usa is able to seize Oslo's airport, and begin his bombing campaign vs core provinces which are normally out of reach from uk (of course ai controlled usa never accomplish such a thing).

Like I said, the only thing Sweden needs to be defended from is a German player!

Certainly having Sweden as a German puppet strengthens Germany's defense in Scandinavia. But for every benefit there is a cost. I imagine liberating Sweden (after you annexed it) gives you 5% dissent, which takes 45 days to eliminate if you set the Consumer Goods slider to maximum (0.11% reduction in dissent daily).

1) During that time you will have a negative modifier in any battles you are engaged in. But as you are doing it between your taking Poland and before Barbarossa starts the negative modifier will only apply to air battles you engage in over France and so it is not that serious.
2) Much more serious is the fact that whenever you have dissent you considerably slow the daily progress of all units that are upgrading. As you are preparing for Barbarrossa (and going earlier is better) it is like you are putting a brake on your upgrading for those 45 days. Of course, for the same period you also suffer decreased net ICs and therefore decreased building of new troops.

To get the Metal from Sweden "for free" is not - in my opinion - a good enough reason to invade Sweden when you have more than enough Power to trade for that same needed Metal, and can do so at Sweden's very fair trade rates and which do not suffer any trade interdiction from the Allies trying to block your trading routes.

To prevent Sweden trading with your enemies is a valid reason to invade Sweden, but I think you can easily stop that trade by just putting some of your Baltic subs on permanent Convoy Raiding in the Baltic where the subs are both 100% safe and actually consume little oil.

HOWEVER, when you write "Germany's worst nightmare is the USA seizing Oslo" it becomes a totally different discussion. I don't think one can at all apply any advice or strategic suggestion from playing against the AI to playing against a human enemy player. As you yourself admit "of course ai controlled usa never accomplish such a thing". So there is absolutely zero threat of the USA or UK AI attacking Germany from Oslo, which concludes my disscussion as regards playing a "single player versus AI game".

If I may continue, - on the other hand - if you are playing against a human you can be most certain they will amphib Oslo (in fact all of Norway probably) to open up a another front that Germany can not easily defend and which Germany lacks the seapower to win at. In this case, I too most certainly would invade Sweden and try to puppet it (not annex, but "puppet only" using the "Sue for Peace" method). And I would conduct the attack simultaneously from Norway, Finland and with Amphibs but - most importantly - first study the Victory Map Mode very carefully so that my conquest of Sweden results in the minimum of needed provinces captured and insures the maximum number of Swedish troops can safely retreat without elimination so you will get all those nice Swedish troops upon puppeting the nation.

I don't know if there is any chance of puppeting Sweden directly. They may well refuse to accept the Victory Conditions you offer, and so you will then have to Annex first, thereby eliminating all their current forces. But it is worth a try as they have a most useful army, and you can still annex immediately after any "Sue for Peace" offer is rejected.

By the way, for anybody unfamiliar with the "Sue for Peace" process, it is the very best way to build up a strong Alliance. Careful conquest of most nations can result in you doing the minimal damage to that nation and you immediately getting all their troops if they accept "Become puppet". You will need to capture all their provinces with Victory Points - at which time you can annex the nation (eliminates every military unit they still have surviving) or attempt a "sue for peace" of which I usually set the only condition as "Be my puppet". If they refuse they get annexed and then the conquorer needs to go the less desirable way of either garrisoning the nation or liberate it which will give you considerable dissent that needs working down. The liberated nation will be your puppet and will start building new military units that you can take control of.

HINT: It seems with AoD 1.05 (probably applies to 1.07 also) there was a major change in what is not necessary when "suing for peace". You no longer need to demand Military Access thereby permitting a lower war score to be just as effective. If you sue for peace and your condition is "puppet" then, if accepted, you will automatically also have military access to that country.

Right now I am playing Soviet Union, it is 1953 and I have not built a single foot soldier for about the past five years.It was the only way I could keep my manpower level up given the several hundred garrisons I needed for conquered nations that I annexed and wanted to keep (USA, Mexico, Europe) as Soviet owned territory to get me to my current level of 937 ICs. However, my total infantry number in the hundreds and hundreds because I have about 2 dozen puppets. My puppets not only build INF faster than I can, but they only build the most modern INF, and quickly upgrade all their INF whenever they achieve the next tech. While I supply most of them with plans to speed their tech teams, some of my puppets are ahead of SU in some areas and give me plans. The puppets feed themselves if there is any supply route they can trace to their capital, and - for the most part - their leaders are adequate if careful consideration is given as to which puppet's troops to place where.

The downside is it is a lot of work maintaining relations and trades with a couple dozen puppets, and keep dealing with the endless streams of new military units they provide. In fact, recently I went to peace for 6 months during which time I released several of my less useful puppets just to trim down my alliance. However, some puppets are most useful. Currently Australia is augmenting my Pacific Naval Bomber Force with the addition of their 11 NAVs, and the Spanish Fleet is my most used Atlantic Sea Force even though I have a couple CV fleets and 3 BB fleets. And Communist China - with nearly unlimited manpower and nearly overwhelming production of INF, MTN and HQ - will be the single land force that drives Japan and its allies into the sea from Thailand to Korea. No Soviet soldier will become a casaulty in the conquest of the Asian mainland. All in all, it's a lot of fun and quite a challenge to co-ordinate the many different forces.

Hope the above is useful to somebody. Probably most players already know all about building a "puppet alliance".

 

[Commander666]

You can divide su forces, if italian troops - with minimal german panzer support - are ordered to attack through Turkey, and engage the red army at Tblisi and Baku

It seems Tuscan is not the only person supporting the idea that a German thrust thru Turkey is a good way to improve the chances for a successful Barbarossa. And I have the feeling that many others are inclined to agree with you and Tuscan because -looking at the map - it really does look like a most interesting diversion. I don't like to be odd-man out so I will reiterate why I think both yourself and Tuscon have seriously overlooked the realities of such a campaign.

But first please let me clarify that I too, playing as Germany, also always conquer Turkey. But it has nothing to do with Barbarrosa, Rather it is all about getting my panzers to the Suez Canal and closing the canal. And it occurs in timing with shutting down the Gibralter Straits for the purpose of closing the Med. And I go thru Turkey usually only because the Italians are doing so bad with most of their transports sunk that I don't risk my panzers traveling across Allied dominated seas and would rather run them around safely by land. And of course I want access to the Black Sea - not to attack Soviet Union which, by the time I do it is already defeated, but as a speedy way of getting my and my allies troops BACK OUT of Russia. Having conducted a successful normal Barbarrossa I now have a land connection to the Baku oil, and - most importantly - can place new navy and especially transports directly at Sevastopol so as to build up a considerable German Navy presence in the Black Sea and which can sometimes daringly venture into the eastern end of the Med. It follows that my reasons for taking Turkey are to let me quickly shuttle troops out of Russia to take North Africa and on to the rest of Africa, the Sinai, and India. And it all happens way after Barbarossa is done.

But you guys are supporting the idea of a simultaneous push thru Turkey with the start of Barbarossa. So let me ask you these questions.
1) You say a "mimimal Geman panzer support" for the Italians you order to attack thru Turkey. Do you agree that the same "minimal Panzers" will be what is missing from your panzer force on the German-Soviet Front up in Poland? Not sure I like that. And do you agree for every Italian you order to Turkey you have one less Italian in N. Africa? Not sure I like that either because usually the Italians are taking a shit kicking from all the Commonwealth troops landing at Alexandria. I mean, if your Italians have not even managed yet to amphib behind British lines to take Gaza and Tel Aviv (to seize Suez) don't you think that any panzers you pull out of the Poland line would be better spend preventing the total annilation of the Italian Army in N. Africa? And just how are these "minimal German panzers" and some Italians supposed to take Turkey if you have not even managed to take Gaza and Tel Aviv (which are usually undefended) ?

2) You don't address the diplomaric problem I presented earlier about trying to run thru Greece, so should we assume this "Tblisi-Baku Diversion Attack" starts with an amphibious assault somewhere on Turkey's Mediterranean shore? If so, who is transporting the troops? For sure it will not be you cause you can't get any transports into the Med, right? And if you did place them there before "Danzig or War" we all know you can't keep them afloat until Barbarrossa comes.

3) Or is your idea to conquer Greece first and go by land, and so keep your panzers safe from getting sunk. Well, if you are going thru Greece to reach Turkey, for sure the Greeks will never align with you, and you have created a new enemy that must now be conquered along with the opening of Barbarrossa. Maybe order some more "minimal German panzers", more Italians, some Bulgarians, a few Hungarians and the Romanians are handy to take out Greece. Oops! More infantry just disappeared from the Barbarossa Front and North Africa!

4) And what about the really important fact that - once you defeat Greece - eveything from Kavala in Greece right thru Istanbul and onwards thru Turkey to Baku and Russsia further is going to end up as Bulgaria controlled territory because of the historic "core" claims that Bulgaria has on Kavala? Baku's oil - if you reach it - will be Bulgarian oil and not German olil. I think you just got robbed.

5) But just how do you intend to defeat Turkey with "minimal German panzers" and some war weary Italians you managed to somehow steal away? Your plan does not seem to include any substantial bomber force to help these minimal forces make it across the Bosphorus Straits which, by the way, is totally an amphibious assault. You get -70% for amphib and about another -100% for the tremensous overstacking you will be doing when you pile your troops into Istanbul. You get more minuses because you are attacking a big hill; and you get no pluses because you only got a one angle of attack. But Turkey can counter attack you on a 2 angle attack from Bursa and Izmit. Maybe you think you can even the odds using Romania's two bomber wings with the handful of Bulgarian INTs to defend them. Have you looked at Turkey's airforce? Or its Navy? I think they got you beat on all counts UNLESS you are bringing down German Luftwaffe. Oops! More holes in the Barbarrosa front.

It would be interesting to know your detailed battle plan for reachig Turkey. I say "reaching Turkey" because at this point both yourself and Tuscan have not even mentioned Greece. It is like it doesn't exist for you... an obstacle you will magically pass. Yes, you can skirt Greece starting with an attack on Istanbul from the two Bulgarian provinces of Plovdiv and Varna. But Istanbul and all beyound becones Bulgarian territory. There is no way to get around the" Bulgaria takes everything problem" unless your Italians have sea dominance in the Med and you amphib straight onto Turkey (most unlikely if Gibralter and Suez are open).

However, skirting around Greece is hardly safe because - sooner or later (when you least expect it) Greece will join the Allies and attack you. If it happens when your troops are deeply committed with Barbarrossa and your "Turkey Expedition Force" is deep into Turkey, you could possibly loose not only Bulgaria but maybe Romania too (like annexed by Greece). So I think you need to conquer Greece first before you head off on further adventures, right? Well, better you start a year or so before you open Barbarrossa so you got the Greek problem all sorted out.

In fact I say "Any diversion attack in Turkey will fall far behind the Barbarrossa advance" and if you plan to do it, you should have both Greece and Turkey conquered and garrisoned (or puppetted) and transports in the Black Sea when Barbarossa starts. Now you need only take out the Soviet Black Sea Fleet with your Italian and Romanian NAVs and you can amphib onto Russian shores from Odessa to Baku. In fact, you could send all your German mobile forces to Turkey and - instead of doing a Barbarossa thru the mud of Western Russia - you could pull off a Black Sea Major Assault "(Bla-Sea-Nossa") AND HAVE YOUR PANZERS IN RUSSIA'S HEARTLAND WITHIN WEEKS. Boy, would that turn Soviet heads!

Good luck with your and Tuscan's plan.

FINAL CONSIDERATION:
And I just checked and turns out the Soviet Union indeed guarantees the independence of Turkey. And Turkey guarantees the independence of Greece. Sounds like any venture into Turkey is not a "diversion" but WAR! Now I remember why I attacked Turkey AFTER I had the Reds defeated. Anyway, just go for it.... it will be fun and challenging however it turns out. But this new info clearly nullifies what I said just above about "getting the Greek" problem sorted out a year earlier". Seems like however a Turkey diversionary attack is done, it needs to start same time as Barbarossa.

Add on comment: (added about 3 days later)
I was hoping either Tuscan or mcganol would reply and defend their positions - probably with something appropriate like "I am just an old war horse who is way too cautious and should be put out to pasture"! I just want to say that this is only a Forum, it's all meant for fun, and most certainly I don't want anything I write to discourage any one from participating. Regardless who agrees or disagrees, I am sure we all enjoy reading others conflicting viewpoints and sparring against them. It's Forum. I'm all for new strategies and enjoy discussing opposing viewpoints. If my discussion was in any way discouraging to anyone, I apologize.

 

[unmerged(227225)]

I recently did an AAR for the Third Reich Mod (here) that illustrates a strategy for defeating the Soviet Union. I do not claim that this is by any means the best strategy, and it is most certainly not the only one. But it is a strategy that works, and I think it's fairly historically plausible. Also, this AAR was for the Third Reich Mod, which is designed to create a more difficult USSR campaign. In vanilla, you can complete this strategy in '41 and force the Bitter Peace with the Soviets in about 4-5 months (i.e. begin historical June 1941 and end late Sept./early Oct. 41).

I would also encourage you to look at other AARs which detail similar and other strategies (e.g. an attack through Turkey, etc.). After you've had success with them all, you'll be looking for mods which make it even more difficult! Unfortunately, a lot of the classic German AARs are fairly old and it may take some digging through the archives to find them....

 

[Commander666]

Turkish Strength, June 1941

Thought this might be helpful to anyone planning a "diversionary attack thru Turkey" or even a major "Bla-Sea-Nossa" in conjunction with opening Barbarossa.

27 Infantry (1/3 upgraded to INF '39) and over half with brigades attached (mostly A/T)
1 Mountain upgraded at 53%
3 Cavalry

1 Interceptor wing (INT-II)
5 Tactical wings (TAC-I) four with Escort Fighters attached

1 Heavy cruiser, 2 Light, 1 destroyer squadron, 1 submarine flotilla, 1 transport flotilla.

Building more heavy INF and TACs with Escorts attached.

12 land divisions are in the east against the Soviet border and 5 in the south against the Syria border. The rest can quickly relocate to mount a defense against any invader coming across the Bosphorus Straits. Most worrisome would be if the 12 eastern divisions did not move as they present a formidable obstacle to pushing thru to Russia as they are sitting on excellent ground (mountains + hills) and number 5 divisions per stack in the two provinces blocking progress to Batum. The country can not be annexed until Trebizond Province (adjacent to Batum) which is Mountainous with 5 divisions in it is taken.

If I were Ismet Inoenue I would say, "BRING IT ON, HITLER!"

 

[lazarus.plus]

I would like to address something to you, Commander666, that does not seem to have occurred to you about the "What about Bulgaria?" problem: You do not have to have Germany's historic allies be your allies. You could easily win the game and paint the world grey with NO allies whatsoever. All you'd have to do in this case is annex Bulgaria, and problem solved.

You also are drastically overstating the difficulty of getting into Anatolia. Those Turk troops will NOT be able to stop a determined attack, plus you could vertically envelop easily enough to gain the additional attack angle.

 

[Commander666]

I certainly agree that the Turks are not able to stop any "determined" attack on their country. I easily defeated Turkey every time I tried it (as Germany and as Soviet Union) and it is downright easy when one appropriates sufficient forces and conducts the attack using all possibilities such as amphib landings and attacking from Syria too. Paratroopers - if you got them - will certinly speed annexing the country.

But this discussion started as "using minimal panzers and some Italians" as a diversion for the opening of Barbarossa. A good diversion is one that permits a few troops (minimal) to obtain a big result like usually drawing a sizeable portion of defenders away from your planned main attack area - to so gain an advantage and win where it counts.

I don't think that any diversion which results in you adding a whole country to your list of enemies and having to take on an EXTRA 31 ground divisions is a good "diversion".

Yes, Germany can paint the world grey by itself. But I just don't want the extra manpower consumed building garrisons for a country like Bulgaria (if I attack and annex it) when Bulgaria is easy to draw into the Axis and adds a good number of infantry and so permits Germany to build less infantry; and take those savings and put them into more mobile forces, more airforce and more navy instead. Of course any annexed Bulgaria can always be liberated but that means you now spend ICs reducing dissent and - in any case - the sizeable army Bulgaria had got eliminated.

I can think of other diversions for opening Barbarossa that, IMO, make for better diversions (or result in weakening middle of the Soviet line as SU pulls out troops to defend threatened areas):
1) An amphib on Archangel
2) Finland taking any province on that border so SU moves reinforcements there.
3) Romania and Hungary together pushing on Stryj

 

[unmerged(59184)]

Just a side-note, but I don't see why you would ever puppet Sweden, when you can puppet Scandinavia instead. Only issue is you get an extra 15 dissent from puppeting Scandinavia, which I don't understand why really, except perhaps for balance purposes.

SCA has cores on Finland so you can add Finland to it as well. But Soviets will attack Germany for attacking Finland.

 

[unmerged(43138)]

Some times a picture shows more then 100 words:

After Sealion I shiped the Troops back to Königsberg and attacked in 2 regions and keep going until I have a circle.
Usualy I have Tanks as single Div and Inf as 3 Div grouped plus HQ with 2 Inf. I leave in each region 2 troops (the weakest ones) 1 on RESERVE. So I dont have to act, when the bolschwick counter attack. (The reserve go to the neigbourgh region and defend it, after it goes back)
Than attack with all aircraft and with remaining Troops. Step by step, with superiority forces.
Tips:
Never change the plan.
3 HQ should be enough - 4 are better

Added:
This is AoD 1.07 with difficult settings.(+10 for enemy/-5 for me at combat) no mod at all
Grafic: GraphicPlatinum from HOI2 The World in Flames with MGMIIv2 and Landv2 added
Stryj was fighting with the Hungary-but moved back
Small Tanks are very fast 15km/h as spareheads, after them the medium tanks roll in 8km/h
Tip:
Keep your tanks clean - NEVER order them into marsh or mud
Attack at sunrise (2-3am)

This is a pocket of 72 Div:

 

[unmerged(286778)]

Nice. Swastika.

 

[Commander666]

Looks downright scary unless that Red pocket falls quickly. I would love to have this for a scenario... and play the Reds. Certainly a most audacious thrust, and I am surprised the AI lets you get away with it. Yes, one picture is worth a thousand words.

I imagine you are not a big fan of a Turkey Diversion having mastered such effective Blizkrieg tactics. Your picture really is most interesting (I downloaded it and studied what I could see). What's wrong with the Reds? Stryj is empty. They let a single panzer division push into their rear. Are they at all counter-attacking to cut off your spearhead? Or are they scrambling about like ants because of the obvious confusion you seem to have thrown the Red army into? Nice screen shot!

 

[Count of Reval]

Looks downright scary unless that Red pocket falls quickly. I would love to have this for a scenario... and play the Reds. Certainly a most audacious thrust, and I am surprised the AI lets you get away with it. Yes, one picture is worth a thousand words.

I imagine you are not a big fan of a Turkey Diversion having mastered such effective Blizkrieg tactics. Your picture really is most interesting (I downloaded it and studied what I could see). What's wrong with the Reds? Stryj is empty. They let a single panzer division push into their rear. Are they at all counter-attacking to cut off your spearhead? Or are they scrambling about like ants because of the obvious confusion you seem to have thrown the Red army into? Nice screen shot!

If I'm not mistaken, it reads "Hearts of Iron 2 Armageddon The World in Flames" on the screen shot. I have messed around with an operation Barbarossa recently and I have to say that - sharing your concern - it's extremely doubtful that you could get away in AoD 1.07 with this. My experience shows that the encirclement corridors around Pripjet marshes have to be protected at least with 3 divisions per province. AI seems to be quite competent in finding your weak points and counter-pocketing your troops.


EDIT: This was a Phase 1 (in version of "triple pocketing West of Dnieper") which felt due its low risk quite comfortable (2x3 divisions per province - or 3 divs per pocket front). In addition to mere protecting of encirclement arms, there is a sufficient amount of units in good position to envelope and crush the pockets in reasonable time and with acceptable casualties. And you have to get all those troops taking part of the campaign in Russia to Dnieper line anyway - there's really no point not to use them all already in Phase 1. (In that game, Northern pocket had 24 Soviet divisions trapped, middle pocket 40 and Southern pocket 68.)

EDIT 2: Just for the note, if someone hasn't noticed it, and to be precise... on the screenshot right above, the "Southern pocket" isn't fully formed yet. Although it's visually cut from the main body of Russia, it's still supplied through the Kerch Strait in fact. In order to close the pocket, Melitopol has to be taken first. In particular game, my next move, indeed, was to attack Melitopol from Zaporozhye and Stalino (won the battle and reached the province before most of the 13 retreating units from Dnepropetrovsk), and reinforced those soon-to-be-empty provinces from neighboring provinces with 6 divisions (across the whole encirclement front, from each province, 6 fastest units were ordered to shift to the next province clockwise filling the gaps). The next step was to wait and receive all the retreating units from Dnepropetrovsk, secure Melitopol, and then push with 3 divisions through Yevpatoriya to Kerch - separating and then taking Sevastopol. (There were only 2x1 units defending in Crimea.) And finally, it was time to crush the Southern pocket that had been ground attacked and interdicted by CASs and TACs meanwhile.

(Notice that in spite of the blitzkrieg tactics used, Soviets have all the time second defence line in place (except a short unprotected segment in North on the first picture).)

 

[Commander666]

The impressive screen shot of bw! is from Armageddon. It noticed that when I downloaded the image and wrote my above but still thought he should be given the Iron Cross anyway for doing so daring a thrust. I agree with you completely, Count of Reval. The attack by bw! would not work (or even be possible to duplicate) in AoD. There's a challenge for somebody.

The AI in AoD has indeed improved very much and does indeed find the weak points and counter-attacks there rather well.

I like the German advance in Count of Reval's screenshots much better (even if the map colors are rather garish). Working on big envelopments (versus deep narrow thrusts) is a much safer strategy and has huge dividends. In Reval's case he trapped (and I assume eliminated) 132 divisions in the opening month or thereabouts. In spite of other posts, that is exactly what Barbarossa was designed to do, and about what it did in the early stages.

However, bw! mentioned "attacked in 2 regions and keep going until I have a circle" so maybe there is another screenshot with similiar thrust to the north and we have not heard the end of this yet? Or do I mis-understand and the attacks at Zamosc and Suwalki are the two attacks bw! refers to? If so, that circle of Reds around Pinsk is the real threat. And what is wrong with the German Panzers way off in the East at Ostrogozhsk and Rossosh? Did they also not understand their commander's instructions to "keep going until there is a circle". Guys, the circle was formed long ago, and several provinces back from where you are. What are you doing on that thin spearhead by yourselves? Oh, you are exploiting the break thru and making another circle (presumably around Moscow). Good luck!

It would be most nice if bw! could load this game as the Reds on same date and post new screen shot so we can see the full strength of the Reds. Then I would like to command that army and teach the Krauts a lesson or two about coming deep into Russia with one thin thrust.

Basically, Reval will soon have destroyed the bulk of the Red Army and then he can do what he likes. bw! has destroyed very little (and I am not sure he can reduce that "circle") but he has most certainly got the Reds mad. Two very different and most interesting strategies. Thanks for the screen shots guys!

 

[unmerged(291207)]

Back to beginning. SU is of course scary, but there is a bright point. SU almost doesn't upgrade, just makes new divs. So Inf will be largely 36' in 1941; armor T-28 (second model). The scariest is probably MOT, as they have a bunch of it, still the first model.
So how I see things is to keep front short - stacking penalty will take much more of Soviet effectiveness, than yours. Don't advance to far, as Soviets will get a possibility to attack from multiple directions with smaller units. Destroy their army first, than advance.
It's from the perspective of AoD, where AI is better, will use multiple directions and counter your envelopments, and stacking penalty matters a lot.
I will write about Poland attacking SU in my AAR.

 

[Commander666]

Shouldn't Poland take out the Nazis first? Was the first came I ever played using HoI 2. I didn't know nearly nothing but beat Hitler way before we started arguing about Danzig.

 

[unmerged(291207)]

Poland should defeat Nazis first. So I did it.

 

[Commander666]

Analysing the attack done by bw!

Some times a picture shows more then 100 words: This is a pocket of 72 Div:

Thanks for putting up that 2nd screen shot to show the Red strength. To clarify, the 2nd picture is May 26th when the circle (pocket) is first obtained. The top image is later on June 5th when the break thru has turned into a long thin spearhead that is best referred to as an exploitation.

If I was scared before, now I am absolutely shaking. You got 72 (seventy-two) Soviet divisions together in one pocket. And in the 9 days it took to extend your spearhead you managed to reduce the pocket by only ONE province - Lublin.

Maybe you won this conflict playing Armageddon. You most certainly would not playing AoD 1.05 or 1.07.

While I am all for exploiting when break throughs are gotten, I would shoot every commander of every panzer unit east of the river flowing down past Gomel for "fleeing from the battle". They just got mixed up and fled eastwards instead of back to Germany! They expose their inability to neither be able to navigate nor follow orders to "go until a circle is formed".

Seriously, I don't consider those 72 Red divisions to be very surrounded at all. 72 is a very big number, and you only reducing the pocket by one province in 9 days proves that. Could be those 72 Red divisions are just resting waiting for you to further jepordise your position before they attack, re-connect to supply, and cut off and eliminate a good part of your forward mobile forces.

While I don't know how it works in Armageddon, in AoD there is absolutely no additional negative modifier for being out-of-supply. Cut off units are never out of supply until a long time later but are only getting lower and lower on supply each day they are cut off. Low supply is a definite negative in the battle results, and is quickly incurred by any unit involved in combat. Being cut-off is of no consideration other than you can not replenish. But that whole Red Army of 72 divisions is packing with it (in AoD) a very large amount of supplies. The supply draw down that has occurred in 9 days by being cut off is really a secondary consideration versus the supplies they still have and the strength to cut thru your spearhead. But if Armageddon gives you that red "out of supply circle" instantly upon being surrounded (with instant huge penalty) like Doomsday did, that may be one of the reasons why much of the community has moved on to playing newer versions.

Like Napoleon said. "Don't disturb your enemy when he is making a mistake".

 

[unmerged(43138)]

I just wanted to show how to make a Kessel (Pocket) and a Kesselschlacht (destroy the pocket).
This is AoD 1.07 with difficult settings.(+10 for enemy/-5 for me at combat) no mod at all
And to weak the Bolschwik, the Stuka attack them:

And on combat:

They have exp+22 leader+14 tankdestroyer+10 mission+10 = 56% bonus.

 

[unmerged(43138)]

The Baltic Pocket with an landing in Riga from Königsberg with fire support of 6 Big Ships in 2 Fleets:

And the attack of Riga:

This is likely the same as Count showed before...

 

[unmerged(52751)]

hey folks,

In my last game with the Third Reich Mod, I had a really fun time on the eastern front using 2 panzer stacks of 8 armor each (+ a HQ), which would punch through fronts and then close and hold the trap. The key, I discovered, was to not worry about holding provinces but instead let the Reds push where they wanted, retreat, and try again, aiming for areas where the map layout allowed 2 or three provinces to encircle another. It was a totally mobile style of elastic warfare and lots of fun because of its rewards, and risks!

I would give it a try again, and focus more on trying to destroy the Red Army in the field than occupying territory (but in the TRM, the Sovs hit back hard in '42, as IRL!).

kilolima