Help, I'm terminally scared to attack the Soviet Union

[unmerged(223294)]

It's my #1 issue with AoD and all previous HoI games.

As Germany, I like to try different strategies but generally speaking I am competent enough to defeat the Poles and then swing West to attack the Lowlands and France, which I tend to manage.

But then what? Sometimes Yugoslavia, sometimes a large naval war, sometimes North Africa... but never Russia. I'm just too scared; I never feel confident enough to take on such a massive front and I'm poor at multi-tasking. On top of that, I never have enough divisions because I like to maintain a 'healthy' garrison in the West.

Does anyone have any pointers for me? I do think it's a serious point. Surely I can't be the only one.

 

[unmerged(140582)]

Uh...just attack and see how you fare? You'll never have as many divisions as you'd like, that's a given. I know the feeling. But I'm confident that you already produced all the units you are actually going to need by '41 at the latest. Even if you think that something vital is still missing - just attack without it and improvise.
If you don't think that you'll be able to micromanage everything, then just create larger army stacks. If you think your units are spread too thin on your frontline, just pool them together and leave some provinces empty - capture those a bit later with second-line units. You don't actually need to cover every single province, your advance and defense will go a lot more smoothly if you leave one province empty between your lines and crush every enemy unit that dares to venture there with the combined might of your armies.
Generally, it is a good idea to have a vague plan on how you'd like to advance - where, in your opinion, should your armies stand at the end of the year? Which cities will have to be taken by then, where are your priorities? Plan an encirclement there, a general push forward here, a paratrooper landing there, an amphibious invasion here, etc... If you break up the task of conquering the USSR into much smaller bites, it will suddenly appear much more manageable.
If you think managing the entire frontline is too difficult, then maybe you could concentrate your offensives on one Army Group while the rest stays on hold? As soon as your first offensive runs out of steam, create a defensive line whereever you are so that those units can recover and shift focus to a different part of the front.
Ally with and take military control of some of the East-European minors. Their troops should give you more than enough additional second-line units to match the Soviet committment along the entire front.
Pull some of those 'healthy' garrison troops out of their vacation spots in the west and put them to work where they are actually needed. About 9 divisions are really all you need to cover the entire coast. You shouldn't be scared if the Allieas decide to invade with a larger force, you should celebrate the unique challenge and congratulate the AI.

 

[Epaminondas]

Think of it this way, King Steve, if you don't attack them, they're sure as hell going to attack you. And in numbers that will make your jaw drop - so you might as well give it a go.

Two points from my experience:

First, don't try to push back their frontline. They have more than enough manpower to make up any mauling you might give their divisions so your aim must be to destroy as many units as you can outright. The obvious way to do this is to penetrate their line, surround as much of it as you can, and let lack of supply do its work before you go head to head with them. The longer battle times and the revised combat modifiers make this harder to do in AoL than in any other HoI game I've played, but it is do-able.

To do it, however, you've got to box clever. Your mobile units (particularly armour and mech) are the keys to creating the pockets you need; so you want to keep them out of combat for as long as possible and let your heavily brigaded infantry do the grunt work of creating the initial breakthroughs. The upside of the AoL revisions is that units can now regain org while on the move so the ideal setup is to have strong infantry and strong mobile units in the provinces adjacent to at least two selected breakthrough sites, but to let the infantry carry the brunt of the initial attack - cycling units into and out of combat so that you don't get caught out by the diminishing-returns stacking factor. Then, when the defenders look like they're failing, throw your armour into the fight and go for the breakthrough result. Any org losses they take in this final push should be retrieved as they motor along behind the Russian line - concientiously avoiding further combat - until the pincers can join up. Push your mech and motorised units through the gaps and drop them off in the wake of your armour to establish the cordon you need. As a general rule, the deeper the penetration the better since it means the frontline units will have to travel further back to break the encirclement and that will cost them both time and supply while you use both to your advantage.

Second, believe it or not, the earlier you go the better off you're likely to be. Typically, the force ratio tips further to your disadvantage the longer the game goes and that's critical to this strategy. If you can manage to go really early you should find that there's an awful lot of empty space behind the Russian frontline and relatively few reserve units available in the back country to try to stall your envelopment.

As far as garrisoning the west goes - don't. Napoleon's maxim that, "He who defends everything defends nothing" apples in spades here. And if you can get your invasion going early enough you should be able do enough damage in your intial operation to allow you to send some units back westward before the Western Allies can do you any harm there.

Bite the bullet - then come back to the board to boast about your brilliant victories.

 

[Conanteacher]

You 'll feel more confident if you manage a Sealion first and secure the Western Front.

 

[HisMajestyBOB]

Alternatively, you could try a different or unique approach, like building forts along the border, researching nuclear weapons, then trying to draw the bulk of the Soviet Army into a few select provinces then nuking them.

 

[Dadaan]

I felt the same way for the longest time with the original HOI1 and HOI2. I would play the Germans all the way up until mid 41' and then start a different game. You have to just do it and see how it goes, then you can adjust on your second game.

 

[Count of Reval]

I think that one of the main questions concerning this issue, which also interest me as a new player to HoI series, is: How big should be the German forces that would be enough for beating USSR in 1941-42 (in normal circumstances), and what would be the optimal mix of different unit types? In more detail... How many infantry and armor divisions are required for more or less comfortable win? How many HQs? Do you need any other unit types besides those three mentioned to be successful (including air support)? What land techs should be definitely researched before the assault? How do you choose your brigades?

In Barbarossa battle scenario, Germany starts with a following land units (many of them brigaded): 109 Infantry, 1 Cavalry, 16 Motorized, 7 Light Armor, 12 Armor, 2 Paratroopers, 4 Mountaineers, 11 HQ - 162 units in total - and some more troops from its allies. At least this amount and structure of troops gets the job done in most of the cases. But if you use blitzkrieg tactics well, what do you think, how much can you economize and save up at the expense of these land units involved in the operation? What is a number of troops that is sufficient? (For example, can you beat Russia only with 80 Infantry, 10 Armor and 5 HQ?)

 

[Epaminondas]

Alternatively, you could try a different or unique approach, like building forts along the border, researching nuclear weapons, then trying to draw the bulk of the Soviet Army into a few select provinces then nuking them.

This hasn't been quite as viable in AoL as it is in other HoI games. I haven't tried it in 1.07, but in the earlier drafts forts have been much more vulnerable to destruction than previously. Knocking them down will certainly cost the Russians heaps of casualties, but they have the manpower reserves to cope with them while you don't have the capacity to rebuild fast enough to make good the damage done.

It's still definitely worth considering if you're not a 'go for broke' kind of player, but you also need to consider that the heavy initial investment required to build your fortress line is going to seriously curtail your unit builds.

 

[Epaminondas]

For example, can you beat Russia only with 80 Infantry, 10 Armor and 5 HQ?

I've had wins with 40+ Infantry, a dozen mech and motorised, 9 armour, 5 HQ, and half-a-dozen marines (together with Romanian and Baltic Allies). But as the inclusion of marines should indicate, these have really been achieved by exploiting knowledge of what the Russian AI is likely to do. If you were to play it straight-up, I think you'd need all of those 80 infantry.

 

[SugarKane]

I find using the air force is vital on the eastern front. Land units, I find encirclement a bit gamey. However this is one of the most effective strategies. I like to push through with spearheads...taking two regions with a strong offensive hold there (sometimes withdrawing from a region) then finding another weak point in the line. Air force is vital for this though and a lot of patience and usually a fairly high amount of losses.

 

[mcganyol]

in a '36 scenario vs ai, about 150inf+30arm+5hq (in '41) at eastern front should be enough for a steady advance.
and u should have at least 10-15 garrisons to ensure at least one undisrupted (partisan free) supply line through the occupied land.
- you can increase your performance at the eastern front, if minor axis forces (hun,rom,bul,slo) are used to garrison france, and more german troops are participating in the offensive.
- finland is a worthy ally, too. they can alone - or with minimal german support - defend scandinavia (sweden most importantly), and distract the red army at Leningrad front
- you can divide su forces, if italian troops - with minimal german panzer support - are ordered to attack through Turkey, and engage the red army at Tblisi and Baku

and dont be affraid of attacking them! if u didnt do previously something terribly wrong u should have the upper hand in '41.
you can only lose the war in 44-45 for several reasons: you run out of rare and/or manpower; su catch up in technology and land doctrines; su have the time and ic to deploy overwhelming numbers of divisions; you have to re-open the western (or italian) front vs allies

 

[unmerged(286778)]

Just make a seperate save game to attack and if it turns out bad just restart to your original save, right now I'm taking on the SU playing as Japan and I'm not using mech, mot, or armour. But to tell you the truth I'm taking advantage of Germany's Barbarossa, remember the Soviet Union isn't invincible.

 

[Tuscan]

Or you could load up as Japan and declare war on the Soviet Union, then load back up as Germany and you will have yourself a diversion ;-)

 

[unmerged(214360)]

DId you consider seeing a shrink? Seriously... you are obviouslly really scared of a video game... And by the way you have not registered the game...

 

[Epaminondas]

I find encirclement a bit gamey.

I'm surprised, sugar. Isn't that exactly what Barbarossa was intended to do?

 

[SugarKane]

I'm surprised, sugar. Isn't that exactly what Barbarossa was intended to do?

Not the entire operation no. It is gamey because it is fairly easy to implement. Unfortunately the Ai cannot replicate everything how it was, nor find a realistic alternative to counter an encircled attack. Given the opportunity I will encircle, however I will do this as a desperate measure or for a strategic region. The Soviets weren't fools they would have countered maybe it would have been after Moscow was captured. The Soviet Union would not have collapsed at this point.
It is more fun when your not quite sure is going to happen. I like a game when you really do have a huge challenge.

Only a personal perspective on how I like to play. I find games boring if I win every time, a loss is not a bad thing. I have had the entire German army annihilated by the SU, other times I can use the same tactic and get lucky.

 

[Fulmen]

The Soviet Union would not have collapsed at this point.

Actually it pretty much would have. Unless you don't call going from the world's largest military to a few scattered pockets of unorganized resistance "collapsing".

Moscow was the center of all major communications and supply lines. The Russians had foolishly put all their eggs in one basket. To sum it up: Lose Moscow = game over.

 

[unmerged(140582)]

The Soviets were prepared to lose Moscow - they had started evacuating everything war-critical fairly early. A Game Over means that the Red Army ceases fire and the Communist leadership offers unconditional surrender to Nazi Germany. This would only have happened if Stalin suffered a psychological breakdown at some point, or if the Army or Party staged a coup against him. This is why taking Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad was so important to the Nazi war plans - they needed the psychological blow if they wanted to have any hopes of winning the war. Otherwise, the Soviets would have just retreated further, if necessary into Siberia, to continue their resistance against the fascist invaders. A victory by ordinary military means was impossible. Sooner or later the unmanageable logistical situation would have ground the German advance to a halt and the entire thing would have turned into a costly stalemate.

Anyway, you can easily make do with about 100 infantry and perhaps 20 armored/motorized divisions, although the more, the merrier, of course. Your troops are qualitiatively superior to the Red Army and can confidently face 1:3 odds, if your techs are up to date, and your brigades fit. After you have seen combat against the Red Army a few times, you'll have a clearer picture of how much your own units can take on. Everything else, like special force divisions, is just bonus - get second-line troops from your allies to cover your advance if you are honestly concerned about the size of your army, and use your air force as a force multiplier where it is needed.

 

[unmerged(286778)]

Or you could load up as Japan and declare war on the Soviet Union, then load back up as Germany and you will have yourself a diversion ;-)

True but theres no point of playing if your just going to do that, it ruins the challenge and fun. But I wonder, how long would Japan last against the SU while its armies is spread about taking on the allies in Asia, and the pacific.

EDIT: Oh wow I just noticed that you and me joined the same date but a year different.

 

[Tuscan]

True but theres no point of playing if your just going to do that, it ruins the challenge and fun. But I wonder, how long would Japan last against the SU while its armies is spread about taking on the allies in Asia, and the pacific.

EDIT: Oh wow I just noticed that you and me joined the same date but a year different.

Yea true, it was more of a "just for fun" idea. Playing seriously I would probably go through Turkey and enter the Soviets back door. Particularly the oil rich province of Baku.

Funny coincidence regarding the join date