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Mightypeon

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So, as the upstart Sparthenos family of Napoli (1066 start) I have managed to form Sicily, take Rome, Venice and Genoa, expand into North Africa (Tunis and Cyrenaica) and conquer large parts of Syria and Mesopotamia. Later Kings successfully obliberated Muslim resistance in Abyssinia, and conquered all the way down to Harer. However, the Ilkhanate has possession of all of the non Byzantine (the Byzantine Empire is fairly strong, but not overwhelmingly so. They managed to even some win offensive holy wars against the mongols, by quickly capturing the target duchy before the mongol main horde showed up)/non Sicilian Middle east. Which includes the holy land. The Ilkhanate does however own the duchies of Damietta and Awsan in Egypt.
While I have managed to keep the ilkhanate focused on Moslems (send 26 Skill chancellor to ilkhanate leader, profit), they have now ran out of Moslems (there are some left in Ghana, but those are currently being eaten by England) and are now going for me!

My plan for a mongol invasion relied on quickly mobilising my forces (they ganked me while my retinue was busy enforcing a claim on the scottish crown that I got via marriage), using my sizeable navy, use my retinue stack (15K cataphracts) to snipe small coastal mongol stacks and build up warscore by rushing the mongol possessions in Egypt and along the levantine coast, while ensuring via bribes that bordering castles are well manned and would extract some kind of blood toll for being stormed.

Unfortunately, the Damiettan and Axumite holdings were to well held to be assaulted with acceptable casulties, so I had to starve them out. What worked well however was the destruction of numerous small mongol stacks in detail, which included one 30K stack which they have from the initial invasion (down to 30K from 140K, propably due to Byz and earlier Moslem fighting).
Unfortunately, the second big Mongol stack, still at 90K has shown up.

Given that I suffer attrition, and that there is scant heavily defensive terrain in Egypt, I can not beat that stack directly.
A second problem is the fact that this stack can assaut even a fully build up fort with fort level 8 and a 2.5K garrison suffering less than 1K losses (I do not think that this is realistic. Assaults are insanely messy, especially on a well prepared garrison in propably the most heavily fortified regions of the game). A third problem is that the mongols fully occupying a single Egyptian county is already nearly 50% war score. I had about 12 holdings occupied when the big stack turned up, and killed about 60-70K in enemys so far. This was not sizeable more war score than the mongols got from a single county they captured.
The Mongol main stack also moved significantly faster than my stacks, which makes maneuvering off the coast very iffy. My Abyssian army has to move with incredible caution.

Other than assassinations (which are iffy, the mongols may well have a cleaner succession than I would), are there any viable way to deal with the enemy? I generally dislike complaining about the difficulty/balance, but I do feel that something should be changed regarding either the attrition free ness or the fact that assaulting castles causes nearly not casulties to a Mongol superstack. One of those would be reasonable, in combination things get incredibly iffy.

Is there anything I am missing? Should I actually accept battle with the Big Stack (I can propably engineer a river crossing penatly, but not more, not much in the way of mountains in egypt, It will be something like 50K for me vs 90K for them, and while I actually have more heavy cav, most the the mongol army is light cav and horse archers)?
If I loose Egypt, the next mongol invasion will be for/Iraq/mesopotamia, where my navy wont help much. There are also no remaining weak targets of opportunity (HRE has Tunis and lands west of it, England became a major blob in North Africa).
The only alliance I have is France, and they are not doing a whole lot.
 

unmerged(100125)

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are you really only able to field 50k soldiers in the mid 1200s?

thats likely where your problem right there. In your position I would probably try and get a claim or launch an invasion of either HRE, France, Byz or England as you seem to be desperately short on manpower. Once you can field 150k+ soldiers you can seriously consider kicking the Mongols teeth in.

so short term I'd say you might have to lose egypt if you can get the WS to get a white pece before his doomstack arrives
 

Jia Xu

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I haven't fought the Mongols in the past few patches, but those 90K stacks do sound pretty bad. Before they wouldn't merge their stacks, so you could wait for each 20K stack to go in a different direction and then pick them off one at a time.

If you have money, consider hiring out as many mercenaries and holy orders as you can and just send them on a death march against the Mongols. You can dismiss them when they've used up their usefulness. It might be the case that you may have to lose a few wars and then try to take back your Asian possessions when they've weakened a bit. Of course that's all temporary, because even if you beat the Il-khanate, you still have to potentially deal with the Golden Horde and Timurids at some point.

I don't want to see the Mongols nerfed, because they're the only legitimate challenge in the entire game. I do want to see them go back to fighting with split stacks though. No attrition is fair for 20K stacks. It starts to look significantly less fair when a united 100K stack is on the move.
 
Last edited:

AttilaTheFun

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I second Vexille; you can't beat the mongols unless you can field a larger army than them.

Using your navy is probably your best advantage as an Italian power. I'm playing a campaign a Byzantine campaign and I'm having problems with the mongol hordes as well. Thus far, I've been able to beat the Ilkhanate a few times, but never the Golden Horde.
Here's my advice:
1. Numerical superiority is necessary to win practically any battle against them. If you can't field a large enough army, buy time enough to conquer the western world.

2. Watch their movements, and if possible, lure smaller stacks away. Fight them on friendly territory, across rivers, and in mountains; the defensive bonuses DO add up. Camp stacks in boats and lure them into Armenia minor coastal provinces, then drop in your reinforcements.

3. Get a lot of heavy infantry in your stacks as well, especially for the stacks that they'll initially be attacking. Assign high-value generals (preferably infantry leaders or defensive leaders). The most dangerous part of fighting the mongols is their two-flank horse archer armies, hich hit hardest during the skirmish phase. The only battles I've on against them so far have used the shieldwall tactic to survive the skirmish. Once you get to the melee phase, if your armies haven't already broken, your cataphracts will hopefully do enough damage.

Good luck.
 

Mutineer

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you still can choise to defend on mountan coastal province. Keeep stack of Max non atrition on it and the rest of your army on boats, when they engage, time that your other army arrive same day. With good generals ( shoise terran defence , good moral traits) your 50K army can beat or seriously weeker 90K army. But it is stange to me that you have 15K catarast retinue and can get total 50K army. You should be able to get 100-150K army base on just your retenue size. May be you have too low crown autority and bad relationship with your vassals? In multinational empire it is a good idea to have as high crown autority as possible in order to get Max Min trops from vassals, so they have to provide trops to you even if they hate you.
 

unmerged(512658)

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My question is whether the Golden Horde has been nerfed, or did the Ilkhanate kill it?

In my last game, it hardly got anywhere. Hungary and Poland were never attacked, and Russia remained more or less as intact as it was previously. Even western Cumania survived. By 1265, the Golden Horde seemed to have fizzled and had lost nearly all of its territory.

The only reason for this I can think of was an early war between the Ilkhanate (which had expanded copiously) and the Golden Horde. Could the Ilkhanate still have had its own 70k attrition-free doomstacks to cancel the Golden Horde's doomstacks?
 

smeggy

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All these doom stories bout them Mongols. Get a big ass Russian empire with 150k troops, mainly (culture boosted) heavy infantry, ally with Ruthenia (50k, also mainly HI) and Bulgaria, and kick the golden horde out at the 1st sign they shop up. Maybe it worked out a bit better as it would have since these 3 nations where human player controlled ;)

My point is it is doable to completely destroy that 160k doomstack the moment they run into Europe. With land based units. You do need a shitload of troops though, 250k.
 

Mightypeon

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In my defence, I started as a single province count in Sicily, my current king is a bit meh too, and I just had to fight off a large indepence revolt followed by a larger pretender revolt, so that is largely where the manpower surplus went. I literally had to take 75% of the indepence revolt castles to get the warscore, I really believe that battles should count more.

Come to think of it, single greek orthodox counts bordering the Ilkhanate should not be very hot in joining indepence factions. My crown authority is medium, vasalls can keep all their money etc...
The Golden horde was fighting the Byzzies over Kiev, when the Ilkanate declared an invasion over Itil.

Concerning the numeric superiority, my Cataphracts can run total roughshod over their muslim/catholic "battle thralls", but the big stack...

Another thing was that I am often not able to "offer to join war". A long term strategy could have been to lend my armies to whoever fights the mongols, hopefully contributing to the demise of their main stacks.

I guess I have to soldier on until the pope crusades or whatever.
 

unmerged(47028)

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As a Catholic ruler you can not offer help to an Orthodox ruler. You should have allied with Byzantines. They then could have called you for help.
 

Mightypeon

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Interesting, I actually could help the Danes (who had Jerusalem) earlier vs the Moslems, but I think I married one of their princesses back then.

Can this be modded? Or at least modded for invasions?

I guess the best way for me to do things is to swear fealty to Byzantines, and then simply take Byzantium from within. We are about equal, naturally, Byzzies will be a bit stronger than me after the Mongols take Egypt, but it should be possible to get it back eventually.
 

unmerged(88697)

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In a current game I successfully executed a plot to kill the great Kahn. His son was 0-yrs old at the time, and during the long minority they were fairly docile.

BTW, am using medium CA to keep everyone happy, and max feudal levies to get all the troops I need.
 

Mightypeon

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Do Mongol invasions actually end if the great khan is killed?
I can propably persist for a long time, but lets say my factions are a lot more threatening than the mongol factions (due to me not having a personal 100K levy).
 

Byzan

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They do not.

They continue going on.

Just under a regency, or whomever is the heir. Only assassinate if the heir is controversial or a regent.

Also, I did a Byzantine Empire -> Roman Empire. I recommend using both your levies and retinues and building up those retinues whenever you can. I have, in total, some 200K levies overall. And some 40K in retinue. And it took me a while, but with one battle I pretty much won the war. If you can destroy their doomstack of 100K? You're set, they won't bw building another one for a while and you can take territories with what has survived of your doomstack (I recommend completely destroying their doomstack) and take territories with ease. This will diminish their power...But, you have do to it when they're unprepared or, if you're attacked. Hope you have something close to them so you can make your doomstack quick.

I managed two wars, both won. (Monogols surrendered as I had a 65% warscore. I used to have like a -50% warscore, but those battles and conquest racked me up. I also took liberated a few territories.

That was a war that they declared on me and I assassinated them.

(I also have High Crown Authority, Max Feudal levies, normal feudal taxation, normal Church taxation, normal church levies, high or normal city tax)
 

Blitzzer

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If you know you can't beat them, and if you know they're coming for you next, throw a pre-emptive strike. The 10 year truce should hold them at bay and 10 years is a long time, anything can happen.. Prepare a hefty sum of money though. You can roleplay that you're submitting to paying tribute to the Khan, instead of facing his hordes.

I did just that to the Golden Horde as Finland. Had to pay 1300g when I surrendered, but during the truce the pope called a crusade for Poland (which had fallen to the GH) and the Ilkhan turned catholic and attacked their cousins from the south.
 

grumphie

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a truce is only one sided. i prefer to just attack them every few years whiel theyre tengri(justs costs me some prestige) and busy somewhere else, grab some land, and force them to surrender. when they finally attack me, i suicide my levies against them to whittle them down and try to whitepeace. retinues are saved for when i got a chance.