Help Contribute with new TechTeams - first step

[unmerged(170708)]

But if skill 7 is tested and proven that it is not too much I have nothing against it.

It has been tested by me and has been proven that Natta skill 7 and 3 specialities: chemistry, management and industrial engineering doesn't halter the game balance.

Athe said that Natta with a human player can break the game. Someone share this view. The issue I can see is that nobody except than me has tried a test in order to support its opinion. I'm sorry to say that on this specific matter everybody is an expert but only in words, in opinions but not in facts.

I would like to ask if anyone that had expressed its opinion on this matter is available to check whether he is right or not. This should be done in a multiplier game because everybody knows than a human player is always advantaged vs. the AI (please see a guy that is going to conquer the World from Albania http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411881).

So if anyone has an opinion please test it and provide the evidence that he is right. No more judgements based on guess, rule of thumbs or on your "perceptions".

 

[unmerged(129995)]

What do people think about my CHC/CHI Land Doctrine teams? I'm looking through some old history books for Industry, Infantry/Armor, and possibly Air/Naval teams and corresponding doctrines. Possible Air/Naval Doctrine teams (I know CHC already has Fang Tse-Yi, a pretty good team, but Air Doctrine is massive, and there's no way CHC can catch up anyways):

Naval Doctrine:
Name: Dalian Naval Academy
Skill: 3
Specialties: Naval Training, Submarine Tactics, Small Taskforce Tactics (China was fairly Soviet-ized when the Dalian Academy was founded, and the Red Navy was really big on subs after all the prints and whatnot they seized from the Kriegsmarine)
Start Date: 1950
End Date: 1970

Air Doctrine:
Name: Liu Yalou
Skill: 4 (Lin Biao called him one of the finest officers he had ever seen)
Specialties: Aircraft Testing, Fighter Tactics, Piloting
Start Date: 1950
End Date: 1965 (died of liver cancer)

My original suggestion for Land Doctrine teams reprinted here. Will put up some CHI stuff later on for discussion.

CHC:
Name: PLA General Staff Department
Skill: 6
Specialties: Individual Courage, Small Unit Tactics, Centralized Execution, Infantry Focus
Start Date: 1950
End Date: 1970

CHI:
Name: Whampoa Military Academy
Skill: 5
Specialties: Combined Arms Focus, Large Unit Tactics, Centralized Execution, Training
Start Date: 1950
End Date: 1970

EDIT: look, Mark, drop it. Industrial Engineering is far too broad of a specialty to give to a guy who only ever played around in a lab. With that sort of a team, the only countries with better Industrial teams are Germany (IG Farben), Britain (Anglo-Iranian Oil Company), and USA (Texas and California Oil, and Henry Ford). When Italy suddenly has a better team then France and USSR, and on par with Japan, don't tell me it doesn't alter game balance. I don't need to test a game to tell you that Mauser is a better Infantry team then Winchester, do I? Then I don't need to test to tell you this.

 

[cegorach]

I will try to compile your suggestions (Poland, Italy, Spain etc...) and upload tech team files with pictures for you to test. Also, I will post here the code and everyone can fix errors or continue discussing included teams.

Target date - this Wednesday

Good I should have my proposals (other than POL which is done) finished tomorrow.



Would you please replace the image I've posted for CWOL in Dęblin with this one:

It is a badge of pre-war 1st Air Regiment
(there were 6 - each with circa 150 planes - in 1939 POL had 890 combat planes + utility, trainers, transport, civilian etc - about 3500 airplanes were produced before the war).

It suits the team more than some unrecognisable biplanes especially considering thwo following facts:

1. the regiment formed the basis of the Pursuit Brigade which to some degree succesfully implemented the idea of the Big Wing which worked as long as air warning system could be used so basically to 8th September,

2. Many of its pilots later formed the 303rd Squadron,

so because it is about fighter veterans, fighter formations and their techs these arguments seem support the choice to use this one and no other badge.

Besides it is the coolest looking.


The rest is here:

http://www.polishairforce.pl/odznakipulki.html

Lvov regiment had rather nice one, but Torun's is just plain ugly...

 

[unmerged(170708)]

EDIT: look, Mark, drop it. Industrial Engineering is far too broad of a specialty to give to a guy who only ever played around in a lab. With that sort of a team, the only countries with better Industrial teams are Germany (IG Farben), Britain (Anglo-Iranian Oil Company), and USA (Texas and California Oil, and Henry Ford). When Italy suddenly has a better team then France and USSR, and on par with Japan, don't tell me it doesn't alter game balance. I don't need to test a game to tell you that Mauser is a better Infantry team then Winchester, do I? Then I don't need to test to tell you this.

In order to perform a more conservative test I added to Natta industrial engineering but, afterwards, I made a different proposal:

After several posts where someone feared that the review to the Italian tech teams proposed by Cardus could compromise the game balance I think that I have irrefutably shown that this is not the case.

Regarding Natta for this test I changed the speciality from training to industrial_engineering. Even though this choice in my opinion makes a lot of sense it would be better to revert it in order to limit Natta only to the chemistry.

Please find below my proposal after my test

ITALY

tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1821 } 
		name = "Giulio Natta" 
		picture = "T1821" 
		skill = 7.0000 
		research_types = { chemistry management } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		}

This has been said several time but I'm still wondering how many people still think that the proposal is to add industrial engineering. The point is what you said: you don't need any test because you know already the answer!

 

[unmerged(129995)]

You're saying two different things, dude.

It has been tested by me and has been proven that Natta skill 7 and 3 specialities: chemistry, management and industrial engineering doesn't halter the game balance.

Sounds mightily like you're supporting Natta with Chemistry, Management, and Industrial Engineering there.

EDIT: and giving Italy an industrial team better then what France and Japan have? No. Will not fly. It's like giving USA Krupp or FRA Heinz Guderian.

 

[Fancykiller65]

are you talking about Giulio Natta? Giulio Natta (26 February 1903 - 2 May 1979) was an Italian chemist and Nobel laureate. He who won a Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1963 with Karl Ziegler for work on high polymers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Natta (Better than nothing)

 

[Fancykiller65]

Industrial Engineering, and Chemistry seem to be his alley according to Wikipedia. Management....iffy.
Also, he is already in HOI2. Giulio Natta, in Chemistry, Management, and training.

 

[nigo]

ludovico


edit first post please

Brazil; http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10124790&postcount=7

 

[unmerged(170708)]

You're saying two different things, dude.

No, I'm saying that I performed a test with 3 specialities in order to check whether it was game breaker. The outcome showed that is not.
However my suggestion was and is skill 7 and 2 specialities (chemistry and management) in order to limit Natta to chemical research.

EDIT: and giving Italy an industrial team better then what France and Japan have? No. Will not fly. It's like giving USA Krupp or FRA Heinz Guderian.

No. it's like giving to Give to Caesar what is Caesar's (subject to game unbalances that for the time being many claims but nobody had proven).

 

[unmerged(170708)]

Industrial Engineering, and Chemistry seem to be his alley according to Wikipedia. Management....iffy.
Also, he is already in HOI2. Giulio Natta, in Chemistry, Management, and training.

Yes, you are right. The issue is to fairly assess his skills.

 

[Fancykiller65]

Also, has anyone considered the idea of putting General Patton as a Tech Team for the USA? (Not sure where to ask about this)
He between wars helped developed the armored doctrine with Eisenhower, and Patton also wrote professional articles on tank and armored car tactics, suggesting new methods for their use. Got this from Wikipedia, but should be true. Not sure what skill or Speciality.

 

[Fancykiller65]

No, I'm saying that I performed a test with 3 specialities in order to check whether it was game breaker. The outcome showed that is not.
However my suggestion was and is skill 7 and 2 specialities (chemistry and management) in order to limit Natta to chemical research.




No. it's like giving to Give to Caesar what is Caesar's (subject to game unbalances that for the time being many claims but nobody had proven).

Skill 7? Seems Right. Why limit if true? If its true that Natta know Chemistry and whatever else, put it in the game. Game imbalance should not count in this.
Edit: Skill 5,or 6 is best. Natta should have Chemistry, Training(Because he was professor), and Industrial Engineering. Not sure about anything else.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Why Industrial Engineering though? Industrial Engineering is how to build factories, how to run machines, how to increase efficiency. He wasn't into that. He did chemistry. Natta with Skill 7 Chemistry and maybe Management/Training seems fine to me. I don't care about game imbalances, the point is that just as the US had historically awful tank design and shouldn't have a Krupp and just as France had historically awful doctrine and shouldn't have a Guderian, Natta wasn't an industrialist and shouldn't have Industrial Engineering.

 

[Fancykiller65]

Natta is a Industrialist. I think. In a sense. He helped make polymer. Not sure......anyway, what does everyone think of having Patton as a Tech Team?

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Yes, and his work in polymers is chemistry. He wasn't involved in building, maintaining, and running factories, which is what Industrial Engineering is.

Patton...does the US need another Land Doctrine team? That tree is pretty linear, so...you could replace Bradley with Patton, I guess, since IIRC Patton led the development of American armor?

 

[Fancykiller65]

How about put both? Bradley was a soldier and he taught Math in West Point. Also Orlando Ward should be in it. "Major contributions to field artillery procedures in the 1930s that, a decade later, made the American field artillery especially effective in World War II.

 

[Fancykiller65]

You can never have enough tech Teams. But i see your point, on Natta. I'm not sure on Patton and Bradley. How about this? Patton goes on until 1945. (Because he died in 1945.) Bradley stays until when he dies. Which is much later. There should be a event for Patton dying. When it goes, the Tech Team and him could disappear.

 

[Cardus]

Why Industrial Engineering though? Industrial Engineering is how to build factories, how to run machines, how to increase efficiency. He wasn't into that. He did chemistry. Natta with Skill 7 Chemistry and maybe Management/Training seems fine to me. I don't care about game imbalances, the point is that just as the US had historically awful tank design and shouldn't have a Krupp and just as France had historically awful doctrine and shouldn't have a Guderian, Natta wasn't an industrialist and shouldn't have Industrial Engineering.

I fully agree with you

 

[Fancykiller65]

anyone? On Patton, and Ward, and Bradley?

 

[Cardus]

Vichy Teach Team

The Vichy Air tech team could be:
"Armée de l'Air de Vichy"

Picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:French-roundel.svg

Skill 3, specialities: bomber tactics, aircraft testing, centralized execution, fighter tactics

For cryptology
"Gustave Bertrand"

skills 5, specialities: electronics, mathematics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Bertrand