Hellenistic Religion in Holy Fury

[Bad german crusader]

So, because Holy Fury is a DLC focused on paganism, and we will also get a Map-Overhaul for Greece, i think we should represent the Hellenistic Minority present in Laconia during half of the games timeframe, so lets get on with WHY we need Hellenism (I am aware that you CAN become a Hellenist by some crazy immortal glitterhoof events but come on what are even the odds):

1. Its a cool pagan religion, with many possible flavour events (like promoting a certian diety by building temples/statues in it honour)

2. It was an important part of History

3. I want to restore Rome to its TRUE Glory

4. Hellenism actually excisted during the timeframe, but (probably) only as a minority Religion in the Area of Laconia, specifically on the Mani Peninsular. According to a map of HF map changes Laconia is (still?) a Province in HF, and lets say that 1/8 of the population of that province is Helleistic (All sources shown Mani as about 1/4 of the size of Laconia and having 1/8 of Laconias Population, so its a decent guess i guess). The people completly stopped using the religion in the 11th century

Now, how should Helenism be implemented in HF? I think it should be:

If the Religion in Laconia has low Moral Authority (<50%) and the year is before 1000 there should be the possibilty for an Event where, based on a formular, the religion in the Province becomes Hellenistic Paganism.

The fomular should inculde: Rare chance, (1/100 years), increase of chance due to Moral Authority below 50% (with 0% giving +50 % chance (1/20 years)), decrease of chance due to time progress (with the year 1000 meaning a 0% chance). This will make the best chance as "Earliest Start, 0% MA" (which will make the chance at 1/20 years). This will likely nearly never happen without player interference, but i do see some cases where it can (potentially) happen, such as:

Muslims completly Overrun the Byzantine Empire, Controll of all orthodox/ironclast holy sites is lost and a lot of land is converted. The people in Laconia go back to their old faith

The Emperor converts almost all land (except laconia) to ironclasticism, or the emperor converts ONLY Laconia to Ironclsticism, making the province religion weak.

 

[RedBaronFlyer]

1. Its a cool pagan religion-

Opinion.

-with many possible flavour events (like promoting a certian diety by building temples/statues in it honour)

Yes, but more relevant religions deserve much more attention than Hellenism at the moment. Pretty much every religion besides Norse paganism and Zunism to a certain extent are just a copy of each other.

2. It was an important part of History

Yes, keyword on was. Much like how the Huns were an important part of history or Zoroastrianism was an important part of history.

3. I want to restore Rome to its TRUE Glory

Opinion.

4. Hellenism actually excisted during the timeframe, but (probably) only as a minority Religion in the Area of Laconia, specifically on the Mani Peninsular. According to a map of HF map changes Laconia is (still?) a Province in HF, and lets say that 1/8 of the population of that province is Helleistic (All sources shown Mani as about 1/4 of the size of Laconia and having 1/8 of Laconias Population, so its a decent guess i guess). The people completly stopped using the religion in the 11th century

It was not "probably" a minority religion, it WAS a minority religion. By minority religion, I hope you know that meant some peasants up in the mountains and was NOT anymore influencial beyond that. Think of Hellenism in the Mani Peninsula like a critically endangered species, just because there are a few pagans here and there does not mean that 1/8 of the people there are hellenic. There's a big difference between a big minority in a city like Jews in medieval Poland, and some peasants who live in an isolated village who worship something that most likely is an extremely mutated form of Hellenism.

Now, how should Helenism be implemented in HF? I think it should be:

If the Religion in Laconia has low Moral Authority (<50%) and the year is before 1000 there should be the possibilty for an Event where, based on a formular, the religion in the Province becomes Hellenistic Paganism.

The fomular should inculde: Rare chance, (1/100 years), increase of chance due to Moral Authority below 50% (with 0% giving +50 % chance (1/20 years)), decrease of chance due to time progress (with the year 1000 meaning a 0% chance). This will make the best chance as "Earliest Start, 0% MA" (which will make the chance at 1/20 years). This will likely nearly never happen without player interference, but i do see some cases where it can (potentially) happen, such as:

Muslims completly Overrun the Byzantine Empire, Controll of all orthodox/ironclast holy sites is lost and a lot of land is converted. The people in Laconia go back to their old faith

The Emperor converts almost all land (except laconia) to ironclasticism, or the emperor converts ONLY Laconia to Ironclsticism, making the province religion weak.

I think you are a little misdirected by how influential the pagans in the Mani Peninsula was. From what I can tell it appears that it was no more than a local thing with no nobles involved. The reason they hadn't been converted was that no one got around to doing it until the 10th century because of the entire place being fairly mountainous, even by greek standards.

It doesn't make sense that they would flip back to a religion that had been critically endangered for well over 300 years. Punishment for low moral authority should remain how it is, a harder time converting provinces and an increased chance of heresy appearing.

Debating people who want Hellenism added is like fighting a hydra that won't shut up and spreads misinformation if you leave it to its own devices.

 

[CorpusIurisCivilis]

Easy, when Holy Fury comes out just remove the "pre_reformed = yes" from the Hellenic Religion and BAM you can reform it now.

 

[klopkr]

Honestly they might as well fix up hellenistic into a real religion and put it in the random world generator.

Half the work is already done.

 

[Tryvenyal]

If 1/8 of the people of 1 province within the score på CK2 should be respected/honoured with implementing the religion, there should be a LOT of dead religions in the game!! The game does not even respect minor religions in a county. It would be cool but it´s low in my prioritylist.

 

[Snow Crystal]

Honestly they might as well fix up hellenistic into a real religion and put it in the random world generator.

Half the work is already done.

I have to ask, how is "half the work" already done?

 

[neutrondecay]

What part of 'this is not happening' do Hellenism-boosters here not understand? This is the most tedious piece of recurrent derailing in this entire community.

And don't get me wrong - I like Hellenism. But this is verging on harassment, and I think it should stop.

nd

 

[klopkr]

I have to ask, how is "half the work" already done?

Well it has its own icon, and religious localization, and some settings already put into the code. Compared to making a new religion from scratch it's at least more done.

Since the random world option lets you create custom religions at least you could add the hellenic icon as an option?

Personally I think if you're going to be able to make a random world with an alternate history then Hellenic might as well be an option because the excuse that it doesn't exist in the games timeframe isn't relevant anymore.

We all know there's a huge demand, we know people will never stop asking for it.

Obviously don't take dev time away from anything else or force yourself to add it if you don't feel like it. But seriously of all the little things to add to this game that'll have a positive response, hellenic for the random world generator is probably one of the simpler ones.

At least that's the way I see it. You're the dev so maybe you have a reason you might not want to touch it which I haven't thought of?

(This also goes for Generic Pagan, but since it's a generic religion people might not care.)

 

[Woifee]

It’s China all over again.

Stop spamming and stick with one thread.

 

[Barón Rojo]

Hellenistic China! Add it!

 

[Rags17]

Hellenistic China! Add it!

Hellenistic China as a Playable Theocracy with Naval Combat.

Next ?

 

[TheDungen]

There used to be hellenic in the game, well in the character creator. And you know what happened, the hellenic community asked for more stuff for it until they removed it.

 

[Rags17]

There used to be hellenic in the game, well in the character creator. And you know what happened, the hellenic community asked for more stuff for it until they removed it.

Don't ask for more stuff, they'll take away what you already have.

Got it. lesson learned.

 

[TheDungen]

Don't ask for more stuff, they'll take away what you already have.

Got it. lesson learned.

Rahter more don't say "Since x is already in game y should be too" because then they may just as well remove x as add y.

 

[Bad german crusader]

What part of 'this is not happening' do Hellenism-boosters here not understand?

nd

:think:

 

[neutrondecay]

:think:

I was wondering when someone would dig this post up. I was wrong, and given what we're getting, I'm happy to be wrong.

nd

 

[klopkr]

Haha I can't believe I called it out before the announcement.

@Snow Crystal you got me! There was way more to add than I ever imagined.

 

[Emikke88]

Hellenistic paganism was not completely dead, and did survive in Herran until the Mongol horde came through the east in 1251 AD. They were Hermeticists, and the Hermetic Society is already in the game.

It could perhaps make sense to have a pagan revival through this society.

I think most people would agree that it Hellenistic paganism by the starting point of the game was completely dead. And having the religion in the game would be ahistorical. But that has not stopped a Mayan invasion to be included in the game. Or other fantastic things like literal Satanists, and magic, which I personally despise.

Yet I think those elements added to the game probably was good for some people, and the magic system definitely was nice for mods. I personally would not mind the inclusion of Hellenistic paganism if I had the option to turn it off.

In my opinion it is no more ridiculous than to restore the Roman Empire, and move the de jure Capital from Constantinople (pop. 200 000-500 000) the Queen of Cities, to the backwater Rome (pop. 30 000). A city with almost no importance other than the Papacy. (Frankly the county of Rome should be a lot less developed, and the most powerful Italian county should be Milan.)

 

[Bad german crusader]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...re_is_a_single_hellenic_province_in_southern/