Heavy Tanks

[ltccone]

I wonder what HOI2 is going to do with heavy tanks. You shouldn't be able to make a division's worth of them like it is possible now.

Heavy tanks were slow and prone to breakdown. They were never used except in short ranged attacks or on defense. They were also usually deployed in battalion sized formations on an as needed basis. They were never permanently assigned to a division.

C.O.R.E. has a better idea when it comes to heavy tanks, but once a division has them, they are stuck with them, which can really slow movement.

IMO since they were never deployed in division sized formation they should get rid of them entirely and simulate their use in a doctrine.

 

[unmerged(25842)]

What about the Maus tank?

Will we ever use that in battles?

 

[Luka]

The Maus was completely useless. It may have been imprevious to other tanks, but when infantry can just walk up to it and take it out because its so slow....
Also, an air attack would eaisily take out a nice big taget like that. Its a difficult thing to try and represent in a game at this scale.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

German industry could not have been able to mass produce tanks of that size to support a whole division of them. And if the maus did manage to get built before the fall of Germany they would have probably been used as breakthrough tanks/infantry support tanks and not used en-mass. Also, I'd like to point out in C.O.R.E. there are advanced heavy tank divisions, it's just that basic and improved heavy tanks are abstracted as additional attack etc. for tank divisions while increasing their build time and overall cost

 

[ltccone]

The Maus was completely useless. It may have been imprevious to other tanks, but when infantry can just walk up to it and take it out because its so slow....
Also, an air attack would eaisily take out a nice big taget like that. Its a difficult thing to try and represent in a game at this scale.

That's why I think that a doctrine is a good idea. One that adds attack and defense, and maybe some org.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well we should wait and see what Paradox does first with heavy tanks, I think the way it works in C.O.R.E. is just fine, nobody is telling you that you HAVE to research heavy tanks... but then again I could be a little bias towards C.O.R.E.

 

[Landa]

Yep, the superheavy tanks should be abstracted like tank destroyers or artillery pieces in HOI.

Altough it would be fun if the player could build a tank division or two with superheavies. Those divisions simply have to be very expensive to build and maintain slower than normal and only slightly better than heavy tanks.

So one could build such a division as a prestige object

 

[ltccone]

German industry could not have been able to mass produce tanks of that size to support a whole division of them. And if the maus did manage to get built before the fall of Germany they would have probably been used as breakthrough tanks/infantry support tanks and not used en-mass. Also, I'd like to point out in C.O.R.E. there are advanced heavy tank divisions, it's just that basic and improved heavy tanks are abstracted as additional attack etc. for tank divisions while increasing their build time and overall cost

What exactly what type of thank is an advanced heavy tank in C.O.R.E.? I've never built the heavy tanks because I didn't want my medium tank divisions slowed down. Movement takes forever as it is.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

D'oh! I mean super-heavy Woops! There's super-heavy 100mm, 120mm/A, 120mm/T and 150mm

 

[The historian]

I think you should be able to build super-heavy tank divisions but at huge cost and they would be really slow and really uselles unless you have air superiority and have them suported with infantry.
By super heavy i mean above 120mm
It would ruin the game if you would not be able to build a Tiger tank division.

 

[De_Genius]

In core I never research the heavy tank batallion as it makes my tanks too slow for me to bare.
I think they could be a tank specific brigade giving the tanks more SA and HA and less speed and perhaps air defense.

 

[Teth]

...But the thing is, Tigers were never deployed on the divisional scale. They were normally attached to divisions as 'schwere abteilungs' (heavy sections) if my memory and complete lack of fluency in German serves me correct, and such things were normally sub-brigade in size.

One way they could do heavy tanks would be that you could build 'heavy tank' brigades for armoured (and mechanized too, I suppose) divisions, and techs that would correspond to things like KVs, Churchills, Tigers, ect. would increase the bonuses incurred from such a brigade. You could possibly even include particularly heavy SPGs in there, like the Jagdtiger, the Sturmmoser/Sturmtiger, and the ISU series of self-propelled guns.

Take it a step further, and you could also have 'infantry tank' brigades for infantry divisions. You could do differentiation between light infantry tanks (English Vickers tanks, French R35s, Soviet T-26s, possible method of employing German Panzer Is, ect) and heavy infantry tanks (English Matildas, Soviet T-35s, ect), although such might not even be necessary. Still, if you wanted to do it, you could have seperate brigade-types for both, or you could just make it a branching tech tree option.

I think it'd strike a nice balance with the current CORE setup, which I am very fond of, but am also not so fond of how you're stuck with the speed penalties. It usually means I never even bother researching superheavy tank brigades in CORE. :/


...And De_Genius posts the same thing as I while I'm writing up this post!

 

[Orthank]

Simulate Heavy tanks as heavy tank batalions/brigades added to the divisions. It should be possible to add such brigade, and after that take it off and put to another one by strategic redeployment.

Easy and realistic. Perhaps redeploying could cost 1ic for seven days per unit.

This rule should be use for all brigades.

Cheers,
Orthank

 

[daedalus]

Maybe basic heavy tanks should be slow, etc. Howerver, effective heavy tanks should not be out of the question. The problem is that you get to them to early i the game. Ie. a normal/balanced research path should have not chance of getting advanced heavy tanks. But if someone unhistorically concentrates all his research into getting effective heavy tanks, why should they be uneffcient?

 

[unmerged(11610)]

Heavy tanks divisions??? Nouuu! Much later after the war MBT divisions was build, but in WW2 please no. Medium tank was all around tank in WW2 and even after the war. Heavy tank should be added with batallion sizes to support armored divisions or infantry divisions. This is a game not a simulation, but I truly hope Paradox will keep it as much historical as possible.

 

[Cpack]

As mentioned here and in an other thread, tank brigades should be possible to attach.

So if you attach a tank brigade to an infantry division, it represents some medium tanks / infantry support tanks or tank destroyers.
If you attach a tank brigade to an tank division, it could represent those heavy tank battallions/brigades.

I think this could be a simple way for game improvements

 

[unmerged(26642)]

I like Tigers. How were Tigers (I and II) used by germans? Because Tiger were very expensive in production, they were used only in independent battailons (max 45 vehicles) or some times as heavy companies ( 1. SS, 2. SS, 3.SS, Großdeutschland each 13-15 vehicles at Kursk). Tigers were allways at decisive points (Tiger doctrin) and slow. Real slow? This is a question of bad terrain: if there were lot of bridges, small roads and so on, is that correct, but in the russian steppes or north africa...? And Normandy? And the question is, for assault or defence? For defence: the heavier the tank the better. What do you think: Montgomerys Operation Goodwood in Normandy meets a company of Mouse ? :rofl: But this is an other story.
For game terms. In Core: researching heavy tank batt >> a little more attack value, nice. Old divs are to upgrade, new are allways with them. I think that is not better as in HOI 1 (heavy tank divisions are possible if you will pay the capacity and ressources). The better way could be in HOI 2: heavy tanks attachments (with different upgradable heavy tank models.)

 

[ltccone]

I think you should be able to build super-heavy tank divisions but at huge cost and they would be really slow and really uselles unless you have air superiority and have them suported with infantry.
By super heavy i mean above 120mm
It would ruin the game if you would not be able to build a Tiger tank division.

How would it ruin the game?

During all of WW2 the Germans produced 1,340 Tiger Is and 480 Tiger IIs. Just how would you make divisions of them? Besides, heavy tanks aren't flexible enough to make a division out of them.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/German tank production during World War II

 

[ltccone]

As mentioned here and in an other thread, tank brigades should be possible to attach.

So if you attach a tank brigade to an infantry division, it represents some medium tanks / infantry support tanks or tank destroyers.
If you attach a tank brigade to an tank division, it could represent those heavy tank battallions/brigades.

I think this could be a simple way for game improvements

A VERY good idea...

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

I wonder what HOI2 is going to do with heavy tanks. You shouldn't be able to make a division's worth of them like it is possible now.

Heavy tanks were slow and prone to breakdown. They were never used except in short ranged attacks or on defense. They were also usually deployed in battalion sized formations on an as needed basis. They were never permanently assigned to a division.

C.O.R.E. has a better idea when it comes to heavy tanks, but once a division has them, they are stuck with them, which can really slow movement.

IMO since they were never deployed in division sized formation they should get rid of them entirely and simulate their use in a doctrine.

a la C.O.R.E., exactly. Ummm...the german heavy tanks were prone to breakdown for specific reasons...lack of development testing and too many industrial shortcuts. Can't exactly mod that I'm afriad...

- MVSN