I feel like initiative isn’t a great quirk, since the Cyclops already does the Battle Computer thing and there’s also Master Tactician.
The fast Cicada would have killed someone for the quirk the Assassin got, though.
Heavy Metal - Discussion about new chassis and traits
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I feel like initiative isn’t a great quirk, since the Cyclops already does the Battle Computer thing and there’s also Master Tactician.
The fast Cicada would have killed someone for the quirk the Assassin got, though.
Fair point.
Hmm... let’s take a look at the Cicada’s fluff, “...The Star League was sufficiently impressed that they agreed to a limited contract with HartfordCo for a small number of Cicadas, using them to replace many Locusts lost in fighting along its border regions. The 'Mech's only major issue was faulty heat sinks, although these were eventually replaced in many models with modular sinks.[2][3]”
Maybe the Cicada’s Unique Equipment could be a built-in 30% Heat Exchanger. This would dovetail with the new COIL Weapons quite nicely! : )
I picked the “ignore cover and terrain obstructions, +10% to Breaching Shot attacks” for a reason. Of course, I was thinking the fast Cicada has 1 medium laser and 2 small, when it’s the opposite. Fast Cicada needs some help still... hmm. Ignoring cover is still nice for light hunting...
The free heat exchanger thing doesn’t really make sense for the stock Cicada since it can barely overheat as it is.
It’s supposed to be a light hunter, but most lights carry enough armor to ward off a medium laser hit or two... the Assassin already ignores evasion... maybe the Cicada could strip one evasion per weapon hit?
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overall, i kinda have a problem imagining how those "10% Damage Reduction to entire lance" quirks Marauder has would work... first, game wise, cant even imagine how a mech could increase damage resistance of other mechs within BT universe.. (no shields in the game...) plus, what will happen if you have more such mechs in the lance? how it will behave with cover and bullwark? If I have 4 such mechs and they increase each other, plus cover and bullwark, that sounds like those mechs would not take any damage then....
Sounds to be quite unbalanced quirk to me... Overall, even Bullwark itself is kinda strange, and would be better off only increasing resistance by 10%, not 20%.. after all, its a skill, not terrain feature, so it should not be as effective as terrain obstruction.. and quirk and skill should not together overcome terrain obstruction too... especially when this is just 3025... and there will be more armor tech coming later which also increases damage reduction... so we quickly might get to 100% which is just not good design..
Sounds to be quite unbalanced quirk to me... Overall, even Bullwark itself is kinda strange, and would be better off only increasing resistance by 10%, not 20%.. after all, its a skill, not terrain feature, so it should not be as effective as terrain obstruction.. and quirk and skill should not together overcome terrain obstruction too... especially when this is just 3025... and there will be more armor tech coming later which also increases damage reduction... so we quickly might get to 100% which is just not good design..
I seem to recall that it has already been stated that two Marauders don't stack... the only advantage of duplicates is that the bonus won't go away when one of them is killed.
I agree completely that it doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint. Though I gave up on the designers coming up with "explanations" that I would consider plausible a long time ago. Sometime around when I first opened up the boxed set and saw the 2D starmap, I think.
my dream come true mod for BT would be one that changes these things back to be true with the lore...
Bulwark and other damage reduction mechanics in Battletech are Handwavium to me in that your pilots learn how to angle their mechs so that incoming damage doesn't hit straight on and direct all it's force into the armour on the mechs. It sort of sounds workable and that is all I need.
Bulwark. The Marauder’s Damage Reduction for its Lance.
Abstraction.
Let’s look at Bulwark first. To me there is a world of Tactical Proficiencies, Educated Martial Choices, Learned Behaviors, Muscle Memory Responses and accumulated Combat Acumen - all tied up and abstracted into what BATTLETECH presents as Bulwark.
On a personal level I equate it to learning how to fence in college.
On day one of my very first Fencing class... I got hit. A lot.
On day one of my Advanced Fencing class... I got hit. Not a lot, but a darn sight more than I wanted.
On my last day of Advanced Fencing, I was my no means Professional but the sport was darn fun and I had me some fine Assaults.
Was I physically a smaller target at the end of all those classes than before? Did I have “shields?” No. But I had learned to identify, evaluate and act swiftly on more of the visual, auditory and even intuitive variables present in any given match. In a real sense I had gained a Bulwark-like ability. Did I still take hits? Yes. But then so do Bulwark MechWarriors... just that much less damage is done.
The Marauder’s Lance Damage Reduction is as beast of a different nature as it is based on a BattleMech’s hardware as opposed to a MechWarrior’s wetware (Abilities), specifically the Marauder’s Lance Command Module. From what we’ve seen and heard from HBS, the abstraction here is a reflection of higher grade positioning, movement and maneuver data analysis and dissemination being available Lance-wide. In an important way the Lance Command Module is the Defensive counterpart to the Offensive-oriented C3 Network, which itself abstracts benefits to the Radar and Targeting Process.
Gaming abstractions of complex, interleaved Combat Realities is seldom as smooth as everyone would like.
But in BATTLETECH’s Individual or Lance Damage Reduction Abstractions, I believe HBS has succeeded in achieving the BATTLETECH goal that Jordan shared with us at GENCON2017 - Depth without Complexity. Here, BATTLETECH has distilled some very powerful Combat Realities down into a game effect/feature that adds immeasurably to the depth of the BATTLETECH experience without establishing the barriers to fun that a more complex abstraction would have spawned.
All in all, very well done HBS. Very well done indeed. :bow:
Abstraction.
Let’s look at Bulwark first. To me there is a world of Tactical Proficiencies, Educated Martial Choices, Learned Behaviors, Muscle Memory Responses and accumulated Combat Acumen - all tied up and abstracted into what BATTLETECH presents as Bulwark.
On a personal level I equate it to learning how to fence in college.
On day one of my very first Fencing class... I got hit. A lot.
On day one of my Advanced Fencing class... I got hit. Not a lot, but a darn sight more than I wanted.
On my last day of Advanced Fencing, I was my no means Professional but the sport was darn fun and I had me some fine Assaults.
Was I physically a smaller target at the end of all those classes than before? Did I have “shields?” No. But I had learned to identify, evaluate and act swiftly on more of the visual, auditory and even intuitive variables present in any given match. In a real sense I had gained a Bulwark-like ability. Did I still take hits? Yes. But then so do Bulwark MechWarriors... just that much less damage is done.
The Marauder’s Lance Damage Reduction is as beast of a different nature as it is based on a BattleMech’s hardware as opposed to a MechWarrior’s wetware (Abilities), specifically the Marauder’s Lance Command Module. From what we’ve seen and heard from HBS, the abstraction here is a reflection of higher grade positioning, movement and maneuver data analysis and dissemination being available Lance-wide. In an important way the Lance Command Module is the Defensive counterpart to the Offensive-oriented C3 Network, which itself abstracts benefits to the Radar and Targeting Process.
Gaming abstractions of complex, interleaved Combat Realities is seldom as smooth as everyone would like.
But in BATTLETECH’s Individual or Lance Damage Reduction Abstractions, I believe HBS has succeeded in achieving the BATTLETECH goal that Jordan shared with us at GENCON2017 - Depth without Complexity. Here, BATTLETECH has distilled some very powerful Combat Realities down into a game effect/feature that adds immeasurably to the depth of the BATTLETECH experience without establishing the barriers to fun that a more complex abstraction would have spawned.
All in all, very well done HBS. Very well done indeed. :bow:
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personally, i think these defensive abilities like Bullwark and Marauder Quirk would be better off if they reduced "chance to get hit" as these are easier to accomplish for good pilots, than some kind of damage reduction which is usually quite weapon specific and usually gameplay wise problematic due to multiplied effects..
Overall, Character development for Pilots could be a better "mech oriented" with proficiencies for certain Mech classes that would increase mech capabilities, which would make these classes more viable even in late game (Elite Light pilot increasing defense/speed for light mech making it hard to get hit/ much faster, therefore a lot bigger pain to deal with)
At the same time, not limiting perk progression to open up choices for player, give him more options in character development and reduce the pilot "classification" and repetitiveness of current setup. Also, would be great if there were certain character traits with impact on player performance.. tech pilots could have better understanding of their systems and get slight boost to detection ranges, or just handle heat better etc... I'm not asking for huge bonuses, just something that would make pilots stand out from each other a bit more... not being a carbon copy of one another..
Overall, Character development for Pilots could be a better "mech oriented" with proficiencies for certain Mech classes that would increase mech capabilities, which would make these classes more viable even in late game (Elite Light pilot increasing defense/speed for light mech making it hard to get hit/ much faster, therefore a lot bigger pain to deal with)
At the same time, not limiting perk progression to open up choices for player, give him more options in character development and reduce the pilot "classification" and repetitiveness of current setup. Also, would be great if there were certain character traits with impact on player performance.. tech pilots could have better understanding of their systems and get slight boost to detection ranges, or just handle heat better etc... I'm not asking for huge bonuses, just something that would make pilots stand out from each other a bit more... not being a carbon copy of one another..
Good write-up here. I box. When I first started sparring getting punched hurt and I got punched a lot. As I've learned to pick up on my opponent's cues about what punch is coming and where it's coming from, I've learned to angle my body and roll with the punches, intentionally taking some hits so I can get in some of my own. I also get hit less as I've learned to be less predictable in movement. Getting punched still hurts, but not as bad and it's much harder for my opponents to land a clean hit than it was when I started.
Boxing is clearly the superior analogy here. Great point! Thank you. :bow:
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Even in MWO, you learn to “roll” your torso to spread incoming fire across your mech and use your arms as a shield. That’s in an environment where if the weapon connects with your hit box, it does full damage regardless of where it hits or at what angle. There’s also a lot of popping in and out of cover to shield yourself.
We know that if you strike a plate of armor at an angle with a bullet, you effectively increase the thickness of your armor. Bulwark is just an abstraction at being better than most pilots at angling your mech to soak incoming fire and taking better advantage of cover.
I would argue it's the Inner Circle, actually. Simple geometry dictates that there is no way for the canon distances to be accurate unless the whole thing is flat.
Fully agreed; I think it's a reasonable abstraction of "This equipment allows your Lance to anticipate fire and act accordingly to deflect". I'm liking the idea of new/future mechs getting some small tweaks like this to better differentiate them and provide personality beyond hardpoints and raw tonnage.
I really like the ideas in this post - one idea for the Cataphract, maybe it has a cost reduction to refit/repair as part of it's Frankenmech heritage? "Just slap whatever part fits in there. The Capellans did..."
I considered something like that, but if anything the Cataphract would be more expensive than normal to fix, because you have no idea what components will be in there until you actually open one up.
“OK this shoulder assembly was mostly stolen from a Shadowhawk, but to support the extra weight they had to reinforce it here and here, and Jerry-rig the myomer circuitry since the thicker myomer strands use a different waveform to contract efficiently. And the [bleep]hole who fixed this thing before we got it apparently ran out of class five shear bolts and instead welded the upper arm structure into the mounting socket and bonded whatever they couldn’t weld. It would probably be easier to cut out the whole upper arm and shoulder assembly and build our own, except the guy did the same thing to the elbow assembly... I’m two parts mad I have to try and fix this and one part impressed that this mess worked as well as it did. Based off the wear and serial number on the upper arm “bone” I think they pulled it out of a second succession war scrapyard ten years ago and it’s only now just starting to go, and only because it’s been blown off a mech at least three times.”
I picked toughness for the Cataphract since its notoriously cobbled together nature makes it a walking lump of scar tissue.
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The Cataphract is not a true frankenmech. It was designed to be be manufactured based on existing parts, but it is a factory fresh design, built to spec. Toughness does work, because the Cataphract was made to be a solid slab of metal.
"The Cataphract is a heavy BattleMech and one of the first original designs since the start of the Succession Wars, though it had inauspicious beginnings. Desperate for a heavy 'Mech design that their ailing infrastructure could sustainably produce and maintain, the Capellan Confederation designed the Cataphract in 3025 to be assembled from parts they could still manufacture. Dubbed a FrankenMech for its appearance, and using components from the Marauder, Shadow Hawk and Phoenix Hawk, the Cataphract was set to become the Confederation's new standard heavy 'Mech. It entered service just before the Fourth Succession War when the production line on Tikonov fell to the Federated Suns."
- sarna.net entry for Cataphract
"FrankenMech is an informal term referring to 'Mechs that combine parts of different 'Mech designs, usually to the point of not being based on any one particular parent design. They may either have been constructed entirely out of spare parts, or otherwise have been modified beyond recognition with parts from other units. Heavy or assault-class FrankenMechs, i.e. those massing between 60 and 100 tons, are often also called "Corsairs".
[...]
FrankenMechs became somewhat common during the Succession Wars as factories, spare parts, and reliable supply lines became increasingly rare. They are typically cobbled-together one-of-a-kind individual designs, although some (like the Wolfman) may in fact have been created more than once.
In the Succession Wars era some new 'Mech designs were created by recombining proven components of other, older 'Mech designs. These are generally treated as new, distinct 'Mech designs although they are arguably just standardized FrankenMechs put into regular production. Notable examples include the Merlin and the Cataphract."
- sarna.net entry for FrankenMech
- sarna.net entry for Cataphract
"FrankenMech is an informal term referring to 'Mechs that combine parts of different 'Mech designs, usually to the point of not being based on any one particular parent design. They may either have been constructed entirely out of spare parts, or otherwise have been modified beyond recognition with parts from other units. Heavy or assault-class FrankenMechs, i.e. those massing between 60 and 100 tons, are often also called "Corsairs".
[...]
FrankenMechs became somewhat common during the Succession Wars as factories, spare parts, and reliable supply lines became increasingly rare. They are typically cobbled-together one-of-a-kind individual designs, although some (like the Wolfman) may in fact have been created more than once.
In the Succession Wars era some new 'Mech designs were created by recombining proven components of other, older 'Mech designs. These are generally treated as new, distinct 'Mech designs although they are arguably just standardized FrankenMechs put into regular production. Notable examples include the Merlin and the Cataphract."
- sarna.net entry for FrankenMech
Eh, you say "built from three mechs." I say "standardized." You say "FrankenMech." I say "tell that to the foot of 70 tons of Capellan ingenuity and determination." 