Heavy Critique of HoI4 [2016-2020] [As of 1.9.1]

[moxica]

ah man, I can already see it:
- Soviet themed expansion with logistics and land warfare features, Finnish focus tree
- Post-war themed expansion with Turkey, Greece and the Middle East getting focus trees

...would be so so cool! Fingers crossed

 

[DocDesastro]

I would like to see Africa and the South Americas getting some love. Although almost all the action happened in Europe and Asia...I cannot believe, that these times did not exist there at all. There must have been something and after decolonialization something is bound to happen.

I looked into a calendar and noticed some things that happened. In the year 1936, when the game starts, in South Africa the following happened:

- first Trolleybuses in Cape Town (could be a focus leading to improvement of a province
- Representation of Natives act (could be a focus decision to gain stability and democratic influence while abolishing it could lead to reduced stability, but raise is facism, if the player wants to go that route)
- Empire Exhibition in Johannesburg (could be an event)
- Die Vaderland, the first africaans newspaper starts publishing (event?)
- first electrical railroads operate. 3 additional railway lines open (focus to expand infrastructure?)

I guess, if we dig deep enough, we might get more fluff and crunch for other minors as well.

 

[hkrommel]

What would be the use of a vanity item in a grand strategy game ? In another genra, sure. It's the kind of stuff players would try to get because it's shiny. But there ? If it truly has no use, I don't see what kind of pride can be derived from building a divisions that will be just a dot on the map never to be used.
Wouldn't it be better if they were efficient but extremly specific ? Like amphibious tanks. RIght now many people hate them because in 99% of the cases they're barely good enough to swallow your oil a dozen jerrycans at a time. But in the very specific 1% case where the enemy is heavily entrenched behind a large river or strait that your best regular 40w cannot cross fast enough to outrun reinforcment, they become useful and can break a defensive line in an unexpected point.

Couldn't super-heavy tanks be the same thing and be THE unit only for a very specific case that you would otherwise go around ? Like, I think they're good against forts, right. Why not make them dedicated fort busters or something. Or maybe an actual defensive armored unit ? I dunno, just tossing random ideas there, but you get my point.

I think you're getting confused here. I never said they should have no use, I said they should be inefficient. You can still build them, they can still shoot, they should be hard to kill (except for planes), etc. But they should also be extremely expensive and should be worth less than the equivalent industrial and resource value of medium/heavy tanks of the same year, or some other set of equipment. They should be a sacrifice, a non-optimal item you build because you want to. Honestly, compared to the historical record my position here is pretty generous. SH tanks were a complete waste of resources historically, and were never built in sufficient numbers to be "used" as you have in mind.

As for why that should be in the game, it's the same reason as not using 40w space marines or other optimal gimmicks. Some players don't care about using the optimal strategy at all times because (for me) it gets boring to stomp the AI in the same way every time. Some want to roleplay in an immersive way, etc. If you make SH armor actually efficient, you remove that option for people.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

i have same feeling that this game can easily be extended to could war era,
but i was heavily criticized when i came with this idea...

 

[Mr_Dimento]

I would like to see Africa and the South Americas getting some love. Although almost all the action happened in Europe and Asia...I cannot believe, that these times did not exist there at all. There must have been something and after decolonialization something is bound to happen.

I looked into a calendar and noticed some things that happened. In the year 1936, when the game starts, in South Africa the following happened:

- first Trolleybuses in Cape Town (could be a focus leading to improvement of a province
- Representation of Natives act (could be a focus decision to gain stability and democratic influence while abolishing it could lead to reduced stability, but raise is facism, if the player wants to go that route)
- Empire Exhibition in Johannesburg (could be an event)
- Die Vaderland, the first africaans newspaper starts publishing (event?)
- first electrical railroads operate. 3 additional railway lines open (focus to expand infrastructure?)

I guess, if we dig deep enough, we might get more fluff and crunch for other minors as well.

Yeah the game could be expanded a lot like this. There is a lot of missing content, but Africa, and South America suffers the worst from this.

 

[Alpha2518]

Where there ever specialized jet designers? At least for Germany their jet fighters were created by there fighter designer. As an immediate actions just add modifiers for jets to the fighter and tactical/heavy bomber designers respectivly, that wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to implement. Beyond that with a plane designer the whole thing would be solved pretty elegantly by just giving the option to mount jet engines on planes once researched and give a few researches for improved design e.g. swept wings, fuel tanks in wings etc...

As I recall Messerschmidt made the 262, the p-80 was Lockheed, and the Meteor was made by Gloster. Is it important that they specialized in jet production? No. But as Jet Designers the stats that they give bonus's too should reflect their designs. IE the 262 had swept wings so perhaps an agility or speed bonus.

 

[Mr_Dimento]

As I recall Messerschmidt made the 262, the p-80 was Lockheed, and the Meteor was made by Gloster. Is it important that they specialized in jet production? No. But as Jet Designers the stats that they give bonus's too should reflect their designs. IE the 262 had swept wings so perhaps an agility or speed bonus.

Yes, although I'd rather think fusing the regular designers as of right now to include the Jet variants.

 

[Alpha2518]

Yes, although I'd rather think fusing the regular designers as of right now to include the Jet variants.

I agree. Though I don't recall seeing Gloster on the designers for Britain. Perhaps I am mistaken. But if they are not present I definitely think that perhaps Gloster should have maybe cheaper or more reliability for their jets. Perhaps both? I base this on that at least for my surface level research, they didn't seem to have as many problems with their Jet Development relative to the Me 262. Though my view may be skewed by the numbers produced since twice as much were made relative to the 262.

 

[GUmby_Aaron]

You balance the game by doing like I said years ago...

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF YOUR GAME adopt the customization/options window that CKii uses for HoI IV unless you'd too also like to have your very own PR backlash from a poorly thought out/implemented DLC. (Are the PDS offices clique like where noneone from the other pods share ideas. Does PDS not have a GM who oversees and meets with all the teams? Seriously please crossover this feature into all PDS games!)

 

[Gort11]

i have same feeling that this game can easily be extended to could war era,
but i was heavily criticized when i came with this idea...

The Cold War and WW2 were nothing alike.

If you try and simulate the Vietnam War or the Soviet-Afghan war in Hearts of Iron 4, either the superpower annexes their opponent in a week through massive military superiority, or the opponent joins the opposing bloc and WW3 happens.

A WW2 simulator is not a good fit for the Cold War.

 

[Alpha2518]

The Cold War and WW2 were nothing alike.

If you try and simulate the Vietnam War or the Soviet-Afghan war in Hearts of Iron 4, either the superpower annexes their opponent in a week through massive military superiority, or the opponent joins the opposing bloc and WW3 happens.

A WW2 simulator is not a good fit for the Cold War.

Maybe, but we can see they have some elements that do work great for a cold war. Things like resistance for example. And the espionage system. TBH it looks like some of it they pulled straight from East v West. On a positive note for the cold war, I hope this is a sign they they will eventually handle the cold war with it's own game.

 

[Mr_Dimento]

Maybe, but we can see they have some elements that do work great for a cold war. Things like resistance for example. And the espionage system. TBH it looks like some of it they pulled straight from East v West. On a positive note for the cold war, I hope this is a sign they they will eventually handle the cold war with it's own game.

Absolutely, not only that but things can be expanded on. There can be a new Proxy War feature where you fight only a limited war, and your volunteers function as some sort of standing/training army for the person in the civil/small war.

I personally would love merely for the tech tree and some focus trees to be expanded to 1950-1955 to at least offer some technology available at that time as well as some features.

 

[hkrommel]

I guess it's theoretically possible to include Cold War stuff, but you would need to:
1. Completely rework the economy to include things like money, monetary policy, trade imbalance, etc.
2. Completely rework resources to include more complex ways to obtain them, plus lots more resources
3. Completely rework research to include some investment and return, to make things like the Space Race and arms race possible instead of each country just researching at the same pace
4. Completely rework the way divisions work to not only make small formations and asymmetric warfare possible and ideal in the Cold War stages, but also make the mechanics change somehow so that doesn't make small formations the most effective for the WWII era
5. Completely rework naval gameplay (again) to make it able to represent the transformation of submarine warfare
6. Completely rework diplomacy to make it resemble...diplomacy
7. Develop a UN mechanic
8. Develop functional focus trees that are able to interact despite going off the rails in 1936 and it's now the 1960s
9. Completely rework air warfare to get a realistic number of planes rather than blotting out the sun with fighters to get air superiority

And that's just off the top of my head. Now I for one would like every single one of these things in the base game as of this very moment, but lots of people wouldn't. I think they're wrong, but that doesn't mean too much.

 

[CraniumMuppet]

These are just my thoughts, but accurately simulating smaller scale conflicts (such as Vietnam) with guerrillas, foreign influence and then being able to, in the same time scale back to the broader East v West "doomsday" clock escalation in the same game is a whole other nut to crack than focusing on a world war. In the same way as the warfare from WW1 and WW2 were completely different.

At some level you kinda want to do it the justice it deserves and it is hard to do all things in one game, but thats just my hunch. Nothing is impossible, but some things are way harder than others

 

[Mr_Dimento]

These are just my thoughts, but accurately simulating smaller scale conflicts (such as Vietnam) with guerrillas, foreign influence and then being able to, in the same time scale back to the broader East v West "doomsday" clock escalation in the same game is a whole other nut to crack than focusing on a world war. In the same way as the warfare from WW1 and WW2 were completely different.

At some level you kinda want to do it the justice it deserves and it is hard to do all things in one game, but thats just my hunch. Nothing is impossible, but some things are way harder than others

Thanks for your input Muppet, I believe that it would be possible, of course after all the WW2 stuff is implemented first. I would love to see it happen though.

 

[Alpha2518]

Thanks for your input Muppet, I believe that it would be possible, of course after all the WW2 stuff is implemented first. I would love to see it happen though.

No. The Cold War deserves it's own game. The only thing that HOI4 could do would be Operation Unthinkable or the Korean War. Or finishing up the Chinese Civil War. I don't think it can go any further then that. It doesn't need perfect represenation, but something that is approxiamate enough. accuracy can then be improved as time goes on once we have a firm baseline to work with. Including Sequels like from EvW 1 to EvW 2.

 

[Mr_Dimento]

No. The Cold War deserves it's own game. The only thing that HOI4 could do would be Operation Unthinkable or the Korean War. Or finishing up the Chinese Civil War. I don't think it can go any further then that. It doesn't need perfect represenation, but something that is approxiamate enough. accuracy can then be improved as time goes on once we have a firm baseline to work with. Including Sequels like from EvW 1 to EvW 2.

Hence why I said "Early Cold War"

 

[DocDesastro]

Would the era in Africa count - I guess it was the 60ies, where mercenary wars were fought in the ex-colonies? We would have the founding of Israel and raise of the arab peninsula resource-wise. Could the game stretch into these? I do not know, how controversial those would be, but aren't wars controverse by definition?

 

[Mr_Dimento]

Would the era in Africa count - I guess it was the 60ies, where mercenary wars were fought in the ex-colonies? We would have the founding of Israel and raise of the arab peninsula resource-wise. Could the game stretch into these? I do not know, how controversial those would be, but aren't wars controverse by definition?

I think it would count, since some things in the game currently get to that late anyways, like resource discovery that was not around until 1955 and etc.

 

[Riekopo]

There are HOI4 modders working on a Cold War game called Terminal Conflict.