Heavy cavalry retinues outside Byzantium: historical?

[icedt729]

From memory this was at the point where France shifted from feudal to royal (standing) army. Still as a comparison, France at endgame, with Mil Org of average 4, would be throwing up retinue numbers much larger than this.

They probably need to readjust the numbers and tie it in to crown authority more (so MP from demense + a proportion of MP from realm). The HRE shouldn't get 10% of his realms manpower at game start for his own personal army. He struggled to get any troops from much of it at all.

The concept of retinues is ok, its just the calculations of what goes into it that need work.

I'm not really concerned about the total size of retinues as long as they're reasonable compared to total manpower- the game naturally starts drifting away from realistic troop numbers as soon as it gives players the ability to directly increase troop numbers through buildings rather than having to wait on population growth or social change. But I do agree that retinues should be tied to Crown Authority or some other set of laws. Retinues are such a powerful tool for maintaining a liege's authority that it makes sense many vassals would want to limit them, especially in cases like the HRE.

 

[brxbrx]

Tying retinues to crown authority is very, very interesting.

 

[Agrippa43]

Lots of good posts on this thread on how the LOR Retinue system is flawed.

50,000 Man "Retinue" for a King in 1200? Riddiculous. Retinue or Household Knight contingent was usually no more than 100 in western Europe.

I'm starting to think that Paradox is sacraficing historical realism to make a buck. I never activite LOR...it makes me nauseous.

 

[Hootieleece]

Actually the simplest fix for Retinue problem.Is to allow every DUKE or above character to recruit 1 retinue unit(500 men) per Castle in Personal Desmesne.and get rid of the Military Organization tech.

 

[icedt729]

What kingdom are you playing to get 50k men by that time? I've got Scotland and Ireland (realm size of 100) and my retinue is only about 7,000 mixed archers, pikemen and cavalry. If I remember right, as the ERE in 1200 I had less than 15,000 men (that's from the 1066 start, retaining Anatolia and Armenia). You must be holding a lot of crowns to be putting 50,000 men in the field at that date.

 

[Hootieleece]

The 50K retinue game was HRE Emperor, by1250 AD(realm size 600)It was Normal HRE and about Half of Africa.As French King(1200) with (realm size 243) I only have 10k Retinue.

 

[MasterOfGrey]

What kingdom are you playing to get 50k men by that time? I've got Scotland and Ireland (realm size of 100) and my retinue is only about 7,000 mixed archers, pikemen and cavalry. If I remember right, as the ERE in 1200 I had less than 15,000 men (that's from the 1066 start, retaining Anatolia and Armenia). You must be holding a lot of crowns to be putting 50,000 men in the field at that date.

Early game the celtic kingdoms are quite backwards, getting a large retinue requires some actual effort. In places like France, Poland, HRE, any large muslim state etc. you can get a very large retinue quite quickly, especially if you've established a moderate personal demesne and cleaned up your vassals titles and territories.

 

[unmerged(471935)]

When we are talking about retinues we can also be referring to a noble's personal guard, his personal little army if you like.In this case the numbers and the strength of the retinue are not way off and certainly they could consist of heavy cavalry.

One example is the case of northern france where a great tournament was held.The tournament was not a joust but a melee.In an area of about 9km^2 thousands of knigths would fight for glory,money and the chance to find a patronage.In these tournaments it was easy to get killed,or taken as a hostage so every man of status brought his "retinue". King Henry of England took part in these events with a personal army of 500 knights and the records say that they cost him 200 pounds a day.200 pounds was the annual revenue for the county of Munster in England.So that's about the consistency of the retinues by heavy cavalry in the west

The pope's retinue could be considered the Swiss guard...or in the case of ERE the athanatoi.But in all these cases we are talking for way less than 2000 men

Now obviously in game you might field 70.000 or more but these are not considered personal army of the noble but more of a standing army and i believe they should be available later on

 

[esbenmf]

The 50K retinue game was HRE Emperor, by1250 AD(realm size 600)It was Normal HRE and about Half of Africa.As French King(1200) with (realm size 243) I only have 10k Retinue.

But HRE and half of Africa as a single realm, is not terribly realistic either.

Esben

 

[HabemusZlatan]

Lots of good posts on this thread on how the LOR Retinue system is flawed.

50,000 Man "Retinue" for a King in 1200? Riddiculous. Retinue or Household Knight contingent was usually no more than 100 in western Europe.

I'm starting to think that Paradox is sacraficing historical realism to make a buck. I never activite LOR...it makes me nauseous.

It's clearly a corporate conspiracy, but you were smart enought to uncover it. For this, I'm grateful.

 

[Hootieleece]

Ebsen, I was elected HRE in that game(AI had Holy Warred for Iberia and Africa before my election)......I waited for the Independence Faction to include the Iberian and African Holdings and gave them Independence.

Finally had just traditional HRE and still had over 500 holdings. Went Crusading against Ilkhanate(for Jerusalem) and Levies and Retinue died to the last man:unsure:


And that 50k retinue didn't even max out my retinue cap.Military Org was 2.5 (1290) and retinue cap was 260K.