Heat banks - is there a reason to use them?

[LemurFromTheId]

I've a confession to make: in my previous playthroughs I've always dismissed heat banks at sight.

But... I'm playing through the campaign again (will finally move on to career mode once I'm done) and just came upon a heat bank ++, which gives +15 overheat threshold and +30 max heat, and I'm wondering... have I missed something ovious here?

Now, assuming I don't want to overheat my mech at all, doesn't this simply meant that over the course of a single encounter I have 15 extra heat to play with? As in... a single shot from a medium laser?

If I took a heat sink in its stead, that would give me 3 heat to play with every round. If the encounter lasted more than five rounds, which is very common - especially in difficult encounters that actually matter - then I'd benefit more from an ordinary single heat sink, right? Not to mention double heat sinks...

Of course, the heat bank allows me to use a bit more firepower at the start of the encounter, but again... it's just a bit. One extra medium laser shot now instead a few rounds later. Is that supposed to make a major difference?

Also, I guess there's also some hypothetical benefit of not being as vulnerable to flamers, but I think I can count the times I've fallen prey to that on the fingers of one hand.

Or is that +30 max heat something particularly noteworthy?

To be clear: I'm not trying to rant on how useless heat banks are or anything. But they seem that way to me, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something here. Is my logic somehow fundamentally flawed? Do they have some nonobvious side benefits? Please give me a reason to spend 500k on one.

 

[jj284b]

30 max heat thats 10 heatsinks in single ton... if you manage to keep your engagements short... Mechs like Black Knight or Grasshopper, which use a lot of heat weapons are ideal for Heat Bank/Heat Exchanger combos... plus, if you have a pilot with coolant vent on it, it gets insane, because it allows you to mount weapons that would usually be over your heat threshold.. like for example mounting 4x LL++ with +10dmg and +3acc

long story short, i would pay anything to get Heat Bank ++ and i rather take it as priority salvage, than any mech part even if it could give me a mech...

 

[LemurFromTheId]

30 max heat thats 10 heatsinks in single ton... if you manage to keep your engagements short... Mechs like Black Knight or Grasshopper, which use a lot of heat weapons are ideal for Heat Bank/Heat Exchanger combos... plus, if you have a pilot with coolant vent on it, it gets insane, because it allows you to mount weapons that would usually be over your heat threshold.. like for example mounting 4x LL++ with +10dmg and +3acc

You really have to elaborate that a bit, because I'm not seeing what you're getting at.

Here's an example that should explain how I'm seeing the deal here:

Let's take a custom Grasshopper with four large lasers, eight heat sinks and nothing else. The heat generated by alpha is 72, and it will sink 54 heat per turn, the difference here being 18 heat. Let's also assume that our overheat threshold is 75.

This Grasshopper can alpha for four turns, after which it will be at 72 heat. After that it can fire three large lasers indefinitely while staying completely heat-neutral.

Now, let's drop one heat sink and add the heat bank. Now it will only sink 51 heat per turn, generating 21 heat per alpha, but the heat threshold is now 90.

This Grasshopper can also alpha for four turns, after which the heat will be at 84. Now it can keep firing three lasers... but it will be generating three heat per round, so for every five turns it will have to take one turn only firing two.

So really, where's the benefit of the heat bank?

 

[Edmon]

Have you watched any of my campaigns?

I ask because I use and abuse heat storage all the time. It's a really important part of getting vicious damage in before the opfor gets the chance to fight back.

The key is to think of it like this.

You could do 150 damage heat neutral, or you could do 300 with a heat bank and overheated design...

But next turn, you can't do any damage...

But if you kill the enemy with that 300 volley or rip their weapons off, who cares, their dead/disabled...

I hope this reasoning makes sense.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

Have you watched any of my campaigns?

I ask because I use and abuse heat storage all the time. It's a really important part of getting vicious damage in before the opfor gets the chance to fight back.

The key is to think of it like this.

You could do 150 damage heat neutral, or you could do 300 with a heat bank and overheated design...

But next turn, you can't do any damage...

But if you kill the enemy with that 300 volley or rip their weapons off, who cares, their dead/disabled...

I hope this reasoning makes sense.

I've watched the occasional episode of your AC/2 and Mighty Miniatures campaigns, and I've been watching your Furypoint series a bit more closely... but I'm falling behind, on episode 11 at the moment. Maybe I haven't been paying attention or have skipped all the wrong parts, but I don't really remember you abusing the heat mechanics all that much. I've seen a few intentional overheats, but no shutdown shenanigans. Was there something specific you were referring to?

Also, I did write: "assuming I don't want to overheat my mech at all". Because I generally don't*: it takes time and c-bills (and time is c-bills) to fix mechs.

Sure, I can see how some sleepy build could make use of a heat bank, but I'm questioning its usefulness for a more typical build that doesn't rely on overheating gimmicks.

Besides, I've seen people say great things about heat banks in the past, but I always got the feeling they're not talking about overheating, but were under the impression that heat banks simply allowed them to fire a lot more during the encounter without overheating. And I just don't see how that's possible, when it only gives you 15 more heat to play with for the entire encounter.

So... what am I missing here - if anything?


*: Not that I never overheat my mechs - I will do that, if I really need to finish an opponent now instead of later. I generally make my mechs roughly heat-neutral when firing their main weapons - but I usually have 2-4 MLs or something on top of that to add a bit of spike damage for when I need that.

 

[jj284b]

thing is, you overheat your mech far less likely with heat bank than without it.. it pushes the mech limits higher..

 

[Edmon]

I've watched the occasional episode of your AC/2 and Mighty Miniatures campaigns, and I've been watching your Furypoint series a bit more closely... but I'm falling behind, on episode 11 at the moment. Maybe I haven't been paying attention or have skipped all the wrong parts, but I don't really remember you abusing the heat mechanics all that much. I've seen a few intentional overheats, but no shutdown shenanigans. Was there something specific you were referring to?

Also, I did write: "assuming I don't want to overheat my mech at all". Because I generally don't*: it takes time and c-bills (and time is c-bills) to fix mechs.

Sure, I can see how some sleepy build could make use of a heat bank, but I'm questioning its usefulness for a more typical build that doesn't rely on overheating gimmicks.

Besides, I've seen people say great things about heat banks in the past, but I always got the feeling they're not talking about overheating, but were under the impression that heat banks simply allowed them to fire a lot more during the encounter without overheating. And I just don't see how that's possible, when it only gives you 15 more heat to play with for the entire encounter.

So... what am I missing here - if anything?


*: Not that I never overheat my mechs - I will do that, if I really need to finish an opponent now instead of later. I generally make my mechs roughly heat-neutral when firing their main weapons - but I usually have 2-4 MLs or something on top of that to add a bit of spike damage for when I need that.

The biggest issue is that heatbanks are pretty rare... but when you get pilot skill upgrades that add +15 heat threshold, that's basically the same thing.

In Furypoint I am pushing the heatbar to max almost all the time. I'd push harder if I had heatbanks, but I don't, but I do rush for that +15 heat threshold skill for the exact reason why I'd fit a heatbank if I had one. It's that ability to put out a really, really excessive alpha in one turn without taking damage.

It's really handy in advanced play.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

thing is, you overheat your mech far less likely with heat bank than without it.. it pushes the mech limits higher..

Far less likely? 15 heat points. I just don't see what difference that makes when a single medium laser uses 12 heat.

So, if you have a hot mech, you can fire a full alpha strike on the first round. Then, on the second round, you either turn off one medium laser or not, depending whether or not you're using a heat bank. If not, you can actually fire more in the rounds that follow.

Does getting that extra ML off on the second or third round matter that much when compared to the higher overall output with a heat sink, assuming the entire combat encounter lasts 5+ rounds?

 

[Edmon]

Well, it also allows you to overheat harder without shutting down. Which is also important in a dire situation.

15 heat points is an SRM6 if your using those, so it is weapon dependant too.

 

[jj284b]

yup. dont look at ML only.. SRM6+++ with 4DMG can deal 72 damage for that 15 heat... its very handy when you can do the precision shot and focus everything on board to that single burst..

so having 3x SRM6 vs having 4xSRM6 is quite a big difference.

 

[LemurFromTheId]

The biggest issue is that heatbanks are pretty rare... but when you get pilot skill upgrades that add +15 heat threshold, that's basically the same thing.

In Furypoint I am pushing the heatbar to max almost all the time. I'd push harder if I had heatbanks, but I don't, but I do rush for that +15 heat threshold skill for the exact reason why I'd fit a heatbank if I had one. It's that ability to put out a really, really excessive alpha in one turn without taking damage.

It's really handy in advanced play.

Sure, I also try to make use of the heat capacity as best as I can, and every +15 heat threshold gives you that much heat to spend, so it's a good thing. However, the extra heat you get from Guts doesn't come with a trade-off; when using a heat bank, you lose a heat sink.

Anyway, if a heat bank gives you a "really, really excessive alpha", then does the lack of it really make it a lot less excessive? Again, it's just 15 heat. Between medium and large laser. And you only get to fire that particularly excessive alpha once.

So yeah, with a heat bank you can fire off almost 8 SRMs more during one of the opening turns - that's 16 heat for 64 damage. But using a heat sink instead still allows for a higher sustained damage - 1.5 SRMs or 12 damage per turn. And when I say "sustained", it doesn't mean you can't vary the amount of fire you put down the field; sometimes you alpha, sometimes you take a round off to cool down a bit.

Anyway, I just can't seem to get over the fundamental idea that a heat bank gives you 15 more heat to use during the battle in total, whereas a heat sink gives you 3 more heat per round. And tough, meaningful encounters tend to last for more than five rounds... right?

I'm sincerely trying to understand why heat banks are so highly regarded, but I'm just not getting it... Is there some specific build, perhaps, that would demonstrate what you can do with it that you can't do without it?

Well, it also allows you to overheat harder without shutting down. Which is also important in a dire situation.

Well, that's something, at least. That +30 is a meaningful amount, seeing how a single heat sink would've given you that much heat dissipation only by the tenth round of combat.

Still, it doesn't seem all that valuable, seeing how I'm generally trying not to overheat in the first place. But I guess you could technically use my own argument against me: a truly tough fight would only be won by taking down the final enemy by shutting down all your mechs...

But I think I already conceded that heat banks could be really good for shutdown shenanigans; that's just not really the answer I'm looking for.

 

[jj284b]

i'd say sustained damage is exaggerated. Its nice to have, but it doesnt win engagements effectively.. Its far better having more weapons at hand, so you can kill your targets quickly, then spend turn or two cooling while completely safe.. with "sustained damage mech" you will face a lot more enemy fire, than other way around...

its practically the old protection vs firepower debate.. sometimes having more firepower is protection of its own...

 

[jj284b]

In BT, you usually fight outnumbered, therefore having firepower advantage per mech, means you can kill enemy quickly, so they wont overwhelm you.. if you go for "sustained fire" firefight, enemy will bring more mechs eventually, and will hit you badly..

 

[LemurFromTheId]

i'd say sustained damage is exaggerated. Its nice to have, but it doesnt win engagements effectively.. Its far better having more weapons at hand, so you can kill your targets quickly, then spend turn or two cooling while completely safe.. with "sustained damage mech" you will face a lot more enemy fire, than other way around...

its practically the old protection vs firepower debate.. sometimes having more firepower is protection of its own...

In BT, you usually fight outnumbered, therefore having firepower advantage per mech, means you can kill enemy quickly, so they wont overwhelm you.. if you go for "sustained fire" firefight, enemy will bring more mechs eventually, and will hit you badly..

I want to stress that by sustained damage I don't mean that I'm just firing the same weapons every single turn while taking fire myself. Of course you take advantage of openings and opportunities and alpha when it makes sense, and fall back and cool down a bit when that does.

However, because the OpFor has superior numbers, you often can't just take as much time off as you'd need to cool off entirely. There are plenty of open maps where you need to fight until the OpFor is no more, and the limiting factor on how much damage you can put out is how much heat capacity you have to play with - and heat sinks increase that capacity every single round.

Seems to me that high alpha potential actually matters more when you're facing a small number of powerful mechs instead of a high number of weaker ones.

I'm not saying that heat banks are bad or useless. But is it really so beneficial to able to fire off those extra SRMs during one of the opening rounds instead of being able to fire more SRMs overall during the entire encounter? It's not like you only get to use Precision Shot once.

 

[GridLink]

So in a typical battle in this game you end up with a fight between your mechs and 3-4 other mechs, and then often (but not always) a second group that usually gets into range (if you move appropriately) around 3-4 turns after you engage the initial set of opponents.

So if you can kill all of the opfor in that initial lance in 2-3 turns you have whatever you've got left to cool down before the next fight. If you are still fighting when they arrive you don't get to sink any heat leaving you potentially fighting more opponents and down to whatever your sustained damage output is.

This is where the tradeoff comes in between doing massive damage now to try to end the fight quickly so you can sink the heat before the next fight, or fighting in a balanced way that means less damage per turn, but more consistent damage.

One of my favourite damage dealers is an Orion V with an AC20++ (120 damage), 3 SRM6++ (12 per missile * 18 missiles) and 2 ML+++ (35 damage each) for a 406 damage alpha, as one might expect the heat for this is quite high and there is not enough tonnage left to make this even close to heat neutral, the heat exchanger helps doing better than the normal heat sinks to handle it, and double heat sinks would be even better but are hard to come by, so having extra capacity to hold heat from a heat bank without shutting down offers the ability to hammer out this alpha a bit more. You need around 3-4 turns to cool back down completely but this does one shot kill a lot of mechs.

 

[yrrot]

If you are trying to get a bigger alpha strike, I think heat exchangers are better for it than a heat bank. A heat exchanger++(?) for 15% off weapon heat will save you more than the heat bank+++ 15 heat capacity increase to overheat limit every time you alpha. That's also 5 heat sinks worth of heat that never got generated and doesn't need to be cooled.

Of course, if you are nuking the OpFor fast enough that heat doesn't matter after the first shot, it doesn't matter which one you use. lol

 

[jj284b]

yeah, Exchangers are the must for Heat heavy mechs..-15% to weapon heat is huge help, and i go for it even if per ton difference to normal heatsink is same (when exchanger reduces 3heat per ton) because exchangers work always, while heat sinks have reduced effectivity in martian or moon environments..

 

[Edmon]

If you are trying to get a bigger alpha strike, I think heat exchangers are better for it than a heat bank. A heat exchanger++(?) for 15% off weapon heat will save you more than the heat bank+++ 15 heat capacity increase to overheat limit every time you alpha. That's also 5 heat sinks worth of heat that never got generated and doesn't need to be cooled.

Of course, if you are nuking the OpFor fast enough that heat doesn't matter after the first shot, it doesn't matter which one you use. lol

The combine well on the same 'mech. The exchanger is definitely better, both are pretty rare.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Exchangers also have the advantage of being biome-neutral.

 

[unclecid]

for meks like the MAD or WHM a heat bank helps ALOT in using being able to use both ppcs more often.
add in an exchanger also and the mek is even more combat effective.

mechwarriors run the meks hot as a rule...most push it right to the limit/threshold and sometimes even past that a bit.

a few reckless types will even run themselves into shutdown to get that last extra bit.

for me when i play battletech regardless of whether it is TT or video game i will run my meks right up to the threshold and even past that.

i never intentionally run it to a shutdown (though sometimes shteiner happens)